[John Mayhugh]

Golf Magazine just posted their first-ever top 100 ranking for UK & Irish courses. The article is written by a familiar name, and the course comments should inspire some worthy discussion. A few early favorites:

TOC
no design possesses the flexibility in allowing golfers of all ages and abilities to enjoy themselves. Modern architects, take note!

Royal County Down
Always interesting to ponder why so many elite courses owe much of their substance to individuals who only designed a few courses.

Muirfield
The absence of artificial mounding coupled with features sunk into the ground lend this low-profile course a sublime beauty. Indeed, when you reflect on Muirfield’s clean lines, you realize how over-shaped and junky many designs are.


Golf Magazine has come a long way in terms of architectural discussion. Thanks, Ran.

https://golf.com/travel/best-golf-courses-ireland-scotland-england/

[Wayne_Kozun]

I love this graphic (except they put Nessie in the North Sea off of Dornoch instead of in Loch Ness):

[Sean_A]

Right or wrong, Cleeve Hill made the list. Although, the lovely map for its location isn't quite right.

And I think Muirfield has man-made mounds 😎

Well done Ran and Co.

Ciao

[David_Tepper]

Feedback from the UK Golf Guy:

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/golf-magazine-uk-ireland-top-100

[Tommy Williamsen]

Feedback from the UK Golf Guy:

https://www.ukgolfguy.com/golf-blog/golf-magazine-uk-ireland-top-100

Interesting stuff from the UK Golf Guy. I liked this quote. It is one we do well to remember.
"at the end of the day that’s really all this list is doing - it’s telling you which golf courses the people who sit on this panel like the most."

[Ally Mcintosh]

I’ve a few issues with the list…. I don’t think any more value should be put in this one over any of the others for GB&I (note not UK&I).

[Sean_A]

I’ve a few issues with the list…. I don’t think any more value should be put in this one over any of the others for GB&I (note not UK&I).

Something is up with Carne. I think it should be the Hackett course listed. There is also no specifics for Princes. Now that the Hims is finished it isn't clear which 18 is ranked. Gotta get this stuff right.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Nice list and maybe it's just me but do I detect a bit of a shift away from "championship" to dare I say it "holiday golf" ? No complaints from me in that respect.


Obviously there are some kinks. Silloth could always be higher and where are the other courses I've been a member at ? 


Niall

[Ally Mcintosh]

Obviously there are some kinks. Silloth could always be higher and where are the other courses I've been a member at ? 


Niall

Haha!


As you well know, those clubs are neither high profile nor low profile enough.

[Sean_A]

Nice list and maybe it's just me but do I detect a bit of a shift away from "championship" to dare I say it "holiday golf" ? No complaints from me in that respect.


Obviously there are some kinks. Silloth could always be higher and where are the other courses I've been a member at ? 


Niall

I reckon it takes 4-6 editions before a new editor or new ranking mag gets it close to their ideal. People expect perfection out of the gate...not realistic.

Ciao

[Niall C]

Sean


The only way we'd get my kind of perfection would be if I was the editor and the only member of the panel.


Niall

[Joe Andriole]

Princes seems very under appreciated. I suspect that only a few panelists have seen the very good work done there.

[Robin_Hiseman]

Joe


I have seen all 27 within the last year and gave it credit with my mark for the huge uplift in quality. I suspect you are right though, given the issues with travel in recent years. Expect the next assessment to be more rounded out as travel resumes.

[Niall C]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

Princes seems very under appreciated. I suspect that only a few panelists have seen the very good work done there.

I have always liked Princes and thought it under rated. Although, I am not overly keen on the new Hims. However, I am told some of the offensive water has been removed. In any case, it's the Shore/Dunes I rate. I think the Dunes is one of the best nines in the country.

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?
Niall

I was surprised that Southerndown isn’t included.
Atb

[Sean_A]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?
Niall

I was surprised that Southerndown isn’t included.
Atb

It's seems like Southerndown is slowly losing its rep as a top notch downland course. I wonder why.

Ciao

[MCirba]

I need to get to Ireland.


And many others, but Ireland first.  And not just for courses on this list but the wild nine-holers I hear about in little hamlets and villages, as well as what I hear are great "pitch and putt" courses.

[Thomas Dai]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?
Niall

I was surprised that Southerndown isn’t included.
Atb

It's seems like Southerndown is slowly losing its rep as a top notch downland course. I wonder why.
Ciao

Social media would be my answer.
Many imo lessor courses, not just in the same area but generally, have constant outpourings of photos etc on social media. Southerndown doesn't. Same for other courses too. A case of post or be forgotten about?
Mind from a purely members perspective forgotten about mightn't be a bad state of affairs.
atb

[Sean_A]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?
Niall

I was surprised that Southerndown isn’t included.
Atb

It's seems like Southerndown is slowly losing its rep as a top notch downland course. I wonder why.
Ciao

Social media would be my answer.
Many imo lessor courses, not just in the same area but generally, have constant outpourings of photos etc on social media. Southerndown doesn't. Same for other courses too. A case of post or be forgotten about?
Mind from a purely members perspective forgotten about mightn't be a bad state of affairs.
atb

In the old days making a top 100 list was the marketing/pr. These days some courses have to market/pr and network to make a top 100 list. It's all one huge circle because there is no critical discourse. Only good to excellent photos from an angle which reveals beauty, but little about how a hole plays and/or gushing articles. Unless I think some good history will be revealed, I rarely read golf course pieces. Or we get Bernard Darwin wannabes cranking out 1000 words and nothing is said... sold at premium price. Flowery puff pieces which Darwin would never have published.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

The other thing I was going to ask is this, is Wales being short changed ?
Niall

I was surprised that Southerndown isn’t included.
Atb

It's seems like Southerndown is slowly losing its rep as a top notch downland course. I wonder why.
Ciao

Social media would be my answer.
Many imo lessor courses, not just in the same area but generally, have constant outpourings of photos etc on social media. Southerndown doesn't. Same for other courses too. A case of post or be forgotten about?
Mind from a purely members perspective forgotten about mightn't be a bad state of affairs.
atb

In the old days making a top 100 list was the marketing/pr. These days some courses have to market/pr and network to make a top 100 list. It's all one huge circle because there is no critical discourse. Only good to excellent photos from an angle which reveals beauty, but little about how a hole plays and/or gushing articles. Unless I think some good history will be revealed, I rarely read golf course pieces. Or we get Bernard Darwin wannabes cranking out 1000 words and nothing is said... sold at premium price. Flowery puff pieces which Darwin would never have published.

Ciao

Well said, Sean. Partly related to where I was going with my golf course “influencer” thread.


Going back to Southerndown, it has never been on any Top-100 GB&I list anywhere so I would hardly call it a surprise that it misses out here.


But I do have a feeling with this list that it is a little too cool for school. It’s like those music nerds who have to discover the new best band before they become big. I mean Ran talks about the fact Iona hasn’t been considered yet because not enough panelists have visited. Iona!


Golf is about great experiences. I can have far more enthralling days hitting golf balls over open, machair landscapes with no formal holes as much as I can playing a world Top-50 on a hot, muggy day. But we all approach the first scenario with far less expectation than the second scenario.


We have Askernish in the 30’s, Cleeve Hill in the top-100. Play this one to its natural conclusion and we might be seeing Otway, Durness, Mulranny and my back garden in the 2032 list.


It is about time that ranking lists are consigned to the dustbin of history*. We need meaningful written word. Steele’s “Classic Courses of GB&I”, Doak’s “Confidential Guide”. The rest is all total fluff.


*Note I realise this will never happen and is completely hypocritical seeing as I also partake in this ranking lark sporadically.

[Sean_A]

I can't comment on the others, but I push back on Cleeve Hill. If the Hill (and Kington) aren't in the conversation for top 100 the list has to a degree failed.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

I can't comment on the others, but I push back on Cleeve Hill. If the Hill (and Kington) aren't in the conversation for top 100 the list has to a degree failed.

Ciao

Maybe you’re right, Sean. Maybe you’re not.


The first time Cleeve was mentioned on this site was 2014 (very briefly by you). It picked up a head of steam in 2016 with a few Matchplay play-offs, originated by you. Most on this website who have visited it since seem to like it. Do they go in with tempered expectations? How many of the Golf Magazine panel have actually seen it? No-one had heard of it prior to you mentioning it.


Is it a better golf course than Glasgow Gailes or Southerndown or Ballyliffin Glashedy?


You have quite a niche view on courses (I like your view incidentally). Is this ranking going to set itself up as the niche view? It can’t do that and also pretend to be the definitive view.


We really do need to start ignoring rankings.

[Sean_A]

I can't comment on the others, but I push back on Cleeve Hill. If the Hill (and Kington) aren't in the conversation for top 100 the list has to a degree failed.

Ciao

Maybe you’re right, Sean. Maybe you’re not.


The first time Cleeve was mentioned on this site was 2014 (very briefly by you). It picked up a head of steam in 2016 with a few Matchplay play-offs, originated by you. Most on this website who have visited it since seem to like it. Do they go in with tempered expectations? How many of the Golf Magazine panel have actually seen it? No-one had heard of it prior to you mentioning it.


Is it a better golf course than Glasgow Gailes or Southerndown or Ballyliffin Glashedy?


You have quite a niche view on courses (I like your view incidentally). Is this ranking going to set itself up as the niche view? It can’t do that and also pretend to be the definitive view.


We really do need to start ignoring rankings.

My theory is that the top 100 is imaginary. If there was going to be a true ranking it would be in groups and would probably have a huge group of 75ish courses which could make the top 100, but even if rated 150 are in the same ball park as 75. I prefer to see a top 200 to know which courses are in the conversation.

Southerndown should be in the conversation. Perhaps Glasgow Gailes as well. I haven't seen its cleared out state. I wasn't a fan when it was narrow and filled with gorse and horrible rough. I haven't played Glasheedy...not a high priority.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

Ally,


Well we have to start with the admission that rankings are aggregations of opinions with no reasoning behind them, don’t we? It isn’t like the panel gets together and argues the merits of Cleeve vs Southerndown.  It’s just which one gets mentioned more, and it helps to have a champion.


The same effect has been going on since rankings were invented.  Thirty years ago Cruden Bay was the weird new kid on the block.  Then, Rye.  But why speak up at Cleeve after places like Shoshone and Perranporth have made it?


These are all cool places we are talking about - places that deserve to be written up by Darwin and visited.  The only problem is that most influencers are panelists and try to shove their favorites into a ranking because that’s their only way to speak, and because rankings are the only thing most people listen to.


Sean is one of the few voices who really is an influencer, but even he has now trapped himself in the rankings paradigm.

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