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Jeff_Mingay

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Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2022, 09:01:47 AM »
For those who take these rankings seriously, note that the difference between 90th place and 81st is 0.0369 of a point.


Noted  :)
jeffmingay.com

Ben Malach

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Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2022, 01:27:25 PM »
Let me begin by stating what I have previously said here. The Score Golf methodology for rating golf courses does not represent a good philosophy on what makes golf great. Therefore I honestly think this list is a bigger laugh than most lists. I disagree with the revealed list and know that the list will only get more comical as we get further into the top 50. As the editorial body, prioritizes things that don’t matter at the sake of the thing that do.  (I personally think that the idea of listing golf in a ranked order is a fruitless act and that we should encourage the publication of more ordered tier lists as there is no upper bound on the number of courses that reside in a tier. Whereas the act of ranking is at its core reductive as only one course can be ranked at the top. This is disingenuous to the fact that the best courses can be very different from each other but still be of similar quality. )

This all being said I somewhat agree with Matt Kardash's last comment on if there are 100 courses worthy of being discussed in Canada. I think there are a lot of places worthy of discussion. The issue lies more in what a truthful conversation about it looks like as it will involve real stock-taking in what has happened in Canada to golf since the start of the second world war.
This conversation will have to come to terms with  83 years of miss management, neglect and bad ideas. One of the first and hardest steps will have to be looking at the number of classic courses that have either been completely lost or distorted beyond saving. This is a heartbreaking fact that we will all have to come to terms with as a casualty of the early corporate model of golf development that flourished in Canada from the time of confederation. A majority of the great courses built outside of Upper and Lower Canada were built and owned by corporations. These large Canadian companies (HBC, CN, CP) did this for the benefit of their workers or the visitors they sought to bring to the more far-flung reaches of our nation. This lead them to be viewed more as corporate line items rather than the important cultural landscapes they became. So when our nation grew these courses first to be solid for new land use or neglected by maintenance. As these open fields of play became neighbourhoods like the one my friends grew up in which was formerly the St. Andrews golf club laid out by Willie Park Jr. or the disfigurement of the routing at Banff for the blind seeking to profit.  This also happened with a lot of our great city clubs one only has to look at the shifting nature of the history of Royal Montreal and its 4 courses to see a micro consume of what happened to the rest of the country, This is not to say that golf should override more essential uses as golf will always be and should be a secondary land use. But, it was hard to watch the U.S. Open at the Country Club and know a few hundred miles north there used to be a course of similar stature on the banks of the St. Lawrence. This is not even getting into the fate of the courses that remained as a lot of our great classic courses remain in a horribly neglected or mismanaged state. The saddest thing to me is the fact that with a country with such a great golfing linage. I can only count on one hand the number of great course restorations or maintenance projects that have been undertaken and completed to the standard of the land that they sit on. The rest are projects that either did not go far enough or took the course in a direction that made it harder or impossible to return them to the once great nature of their site.

This now is where I know I am going to ruffle the most feathers but I think it needs to be done for the betterment of the game in Canada and the growth of our golfing mind. I personally believe that there have been less than 10 new golf courses in Canada worth including on this list built after 1953 the year of Stanley Thompson's death. Almost every architect working in Canada from this point onward either lived in his shadow or attempted to copy his work to their own detriment. The few that stepped out of his shadow and created these courses I speak of did so by looking to the wider golfing world for inspiration and study. This allowed them to look out onto the wondrous Canadian landscape and see the true great golfing potential in it. Those that coward and sought to copy the trends of the day or to follow Thompson’s words ended up creating golf that is unplayable in the worst case but in most is just bland and insipid copying unworthy of the land they lay upon. This led Canada into the darkest of dark ages of golf. Leading our most touted courses to fall like stones when compared to the rest of the golfing world.

The worst side effect of these 80-odd years of neglect, mismanagement and directed misinforming of the golfing public is now we have the hard task of deprogramming the golfing public and the industry that surrounds it. This is a large issue as a majority of Canadian golfers can’t go play or see a course that illuminates the subject of golf without taking a long trip to a costly location. This is compounded by the fact that our only source of printed golf coverage in Canada is a bought and paid-for magazine by a large-scale retailer that has done all it can to crush the smaller golf shops and therefore limit the business of the smaller courses in our nation. It's in these places that golfing communities can form not in the stale and sterilized confines of a big box retailer or in the expensive confines of a resort. All of this is deeply saddening to me as a supporter of great golf in all its forms. As I believe that there is good golfing land near a majority of our population centers that should be able to suit this purpose. In most cases, this land that does have golf on the courses do little to highlight the wonder of these sites. This leads to a  majority of places where the course actively attempts to hide the interest of the land. It does this through the poor planting of trees, the intervention of unnatural ponds and other hazards, and with greens and contours that feel foreign to the landscape in which they reside.

This leads us to our opportunity we must start to openly discuss the poor condition of the golfing grounds in Canada. Without this discussion, nothing will change or get better. It is through consistent and helpful criticism that we must illuminate the missteps of the past in hopes that we can change them for a brighter future. This means when we talk about even our best courses we must encourage them to seek the best versions of themselves whether that is to encourage them to embrace their history through better mowing lines and possible improvements or when we talk about the lesser course on this list to seek a considered redesign to better embrace the disregarded attributes of their site. I personally believe Canada could stand as one of the better-golfing nations in the world if we did a better job embracing the wonderful landscapes that we inhabit. The issue is that we are not there yet and we should be. All we need to do is study the past 80 years of mismanagement and learn what we can in hope of not repeating it. Then apply the best models learned from studying our past and golf from around the world. We must take these stories and put them into practice in our further Canadian work. I already see this practice taking hold in a few small pockets of the country. Which gives me great hope for the future.  As it would be wonderful to see a national trend take hold of great simple golf being restored to the Canadian landscape. As we as Canadian have the blessing to live in one of the most beautiful and geologically diverse nations on earth. It's time that our golf shows off a celebrates this diversity much as we do with our celebration of the multiple cultures that weave their way across our wonderful nation.   


« Last Edit: July 13, 2022, 01:42:03 PM by Ben Malach »
@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2022, 01:29:40 PM »
I really don't see the point of doing a list of 100. By the time you get to 100 on the list, what are these courses ranked, at about a Doak 5? It's kind of silly.


What's the harm in posting 51-100?
Oh whatever, they can do as they wish. I am not one for course rankings in general. i don't take it very seriously.It just strikes me as funny as some big important list talking about the best of the best....but let's just be honest, we don't have 100 courses worthy of such a list.What is the harm in Germany posting their top 100? Again, nothing, but I would bet the 100th course on the list isn't worthy of much investigation.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/continental-europe/germany?page=10


While the 100th best golf course in Canada (btw, Canada has the 4th most golf courses of any country) might not be worth GCA's study, it might be a big deal for other golfers not as snobby as you. Whether or not the rankings are right, however, is a completely different discussion. I think there's 100 courses worth seeking out in Canada, I just don't think SCORE identifies them all. Granted, this is a better start than years past, but I see very little harm in posting 100 versus 75 or 50. After all, Canada has 2,300 courses... for a course that ranks 84th or 97th or whatever, it's a big deal for them!

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2022, 09:36:43 PM »
I read the decade from 51-60, and did not recognize/revere a single course. I asked myself, why is that?

Can friends from the Leaf enlighten me as to which of those ten courses has interest?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Andrew Harvie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2022, 06:18:58 AM »
I read the decade from 51-60, and did not recognize/revere a single course. I asked myself, why is that?

Can friends from the Leaf enlighten me as to which of those ten courses has interest?


Algonquin, Wolf Creek (Links), and TPC Heathlands are the good ones of that bunch. A lot of overrated in one batch

Ben Malach

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2022, 11:11:20 AM »
This list is built to anger intelligent golfers and is nothing more than a resort and ultra rich club PR exercise.


The fact that both courses at Wolf Creek and the Algonquin reside outside the top 25 is laughable at best. As the work done by Rod Whitman at all three is more has more variety than any of the other featured work. That's not even discussing how he was handcuffed at The Algonquin by expertly mediocre decision making by Tom McBroom on his original renovation of this Donald Ross classic.


I don't know how they get to these decisions based on any valid criticism. This list is made to push middling resort golf and the ultra exclusive clubs around Toronto. Watch out for a high appearance from some brain dead golf that receives about 10 rounds a day coming up or a resort with one pretty hole.


This list continues to be a disappointment but what should I expect coming from a publication sponsored by a big box equipment store.



@benmalach on Instagram and Twitter

Matt Kardash

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2022, 12:45:32 PM »
I really don't see the point of doing a list of 100. By the time you get to 100 on the list, what are these courses ranked, at about a Doak 5? It's kind of silly.


What's the harm in posting 51-100?
Oh whatever, they can do as they wish. I am not one for course rankings in general. i don't take it very seriously.It just strikes me as funny as some big important list talking about the best of the best....but let's just be honest, we don't have 100 courses worthy of such a list.What is the harm in Germany posting their top 100? Again, nothing, but I would bet the 100th course on the list isn't worthy of much investigation.


https://www.top100golfcourses.com/golf-courses/continental-europe/germany?page=10


While the 100th best golf course in Canada (btw, Canada has the 4th most golf courses of any country) might not be worth GCA's study, it might be a big deal for other golfers not as snobby as you. Whether or not the rankings are right, however, is a completely different discussion. I think there's 100 courses worth seeking out in Canada, I just don't think SCORE identifies them all. Granted, this is a better start than years past, but I see very little harm in posting 100 versus 75 or 50. After all, Canada has 2,300 courses... for a course that ranks 84th or 97th or whatever, it's a big deal for them!
Not a snob at all, would be happy to play on of the courses on that list. But that is not relevant to my point.
the interviewer asked beck how he felt "being the bob dylan of the 90's" and beck quitely responded "i actually feel more like the bon jovi of the 60's"

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2022, 03:42:13 PM »
This list is made to push middling resort golf and the ultra exclusive clubs around Toronto. Watch out for a high appearance from some brain dead golf that receives about 10 rounds a day coming up or a resort with one pretty hole.


This list continues to be a disappointment but what should I expect coming from a publication sponsored by a big box equipment store.
I agree with you when it comes to the resort courses but I have to push back when it comes to "ultra exclusive clubs around Toronto"
What courses are you referring to?  The most exclusive clubs around Toronto would be Magna, Rosedale, Toronto GC and maybe the National.
Magna was ranked #93 this year and Rosedale was at 68.  Toronto will likely be in the top 20, and it is perennially under-ranked as the club doesn't GAF about rankings.  The National will not be on the list this year.

Ultra-exclusive clubs a bit farther afield from Toronto would be Redtail and Oviinbyrd.  I haven't played Oviinbyrd but I think Redtail is a very good test of golf.  Redtail was ranked #34 last time and Oviinbyrd was #15.

And Memphremagog is probably one of the courses that you are referring to but it is not anywhere near Toronto.
When it comes to other ultra-exclusive courses, one of those around Montreal, Mt Bruno, is generally ranked lower than it should be.  But that also appears to be because the don't GAF about ratings either.

Lower down in this list there are a lot of questionable choices but they generally get the top 10 right as the top 10 are generally the courses with a Doak rating of 7 from the CG or higher and are the courses that are in the 147 Custodians of the game.
Personally I find the list helpful when I am going to other parts of the country to find out more about some of the best courses to attempt to play.  When I went to Victoria a decade ago I played Victoria GC and Royal Colwood as they were the to courses in the city according to the rankings.  That is probably a fair assessment.
Over time the resort courses tend to fall back to their more proper spots.  For example, Taboo was once rated 11 and it is now way down.  As I have already noted the ski resort courses in Whistler and Tremblant have generally been ranked too high, at least IMO, and those are now falling down the list.
But resort courses do make up a good portion of the best courses in the country - the two courses at Cabot, CB Highlands, Banff and Jasper.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #33 on: July 25, 2022, 06:32:55 PM »
Here's the full top 100, the top 10 were released today.  The top 10 contains one new entry - Toronto GC. The National is not on the list as the publisher decided not to include courses with exclusionary membership policies - it is a Mens only club.
The top 10 contains Stanley's top five, two H.S. Colt courses, the two courses at Cabot, and the Paintbrush by Hurdzan/Fry.

Rank    Course
1    Cabot Cliffs
2    St. George’s
3    Fairmont Jasper Park Lodge
4    Hamilton
5    Cabot Links
6    Capilano
7    Fairmont Banff Springs
8    Cape Breton Highlands Links
9    Devil’s Paintbrush
10    Toronto GC
11    Beacon Hall
12    Westmount
13    Sagebrush
14    Oviinbyrd
15    Blackhawk
16    Memphremagog
17    Victoria GC
18    Greywolf
19    Shaughnessy
20    Mickelson National
21    Coppinwood
22    Muskoka Bay
23    Devil’s Pulpit
24    Mount Bruno
25    London Hunt
26    Tobiano
27    Calgary G&CC
28    Humber Valley
29    Goodwood GC
30    Stewart Creek
31    Weston
32    Predator Ridge – Ridge
33    Bigwin Island
34    Kananaskis - Mt.Kidd
35    Royal Montreal - Blue
36    Rocky Crest
37    Crowbush Cove
38    Mad River
39    Redtail
40    Port Carling G&CC
41    Osprey Valley - Hoot
42    Big Sky
43    St. Thomas
44    Cherry Hill
45    Laval-sur-le-lac Blue
46    Mississauga G&CC
47    Summit
48    Essex
49    Royal Colwood
50    Eagles Nest
51    Glencoe - Forest
52    Wolf Creek - Links
53    Georgian Bay
54    Osprey Valley - North
55    Ottawa Hunt
56    Osprey Valley - Heathlands
57    The Ridge at Manitou
58    Windermere
59    Tower Ranch
60    Algonquin
61    Burlington
62    Talking Rock
63    Black Bear Ridge
64    Riverside
65    Maple Downs
66    Royal Mayfair
67    Wolf Creek - Old
68    Rosedale
69    Brantford
70    Northern Bear
71    Lookout Point
72    Scarboro
73    Dundarave
74    Copper Creek
75    Tarandowah
76    Wildfire
77    Vancouver
78    Laval-sur-le-lac Green
79    Point Grey
80    Nicklaus North
81    Deer Ridge
82    Bear Mountain - Valley
83    Waskesiu
84    Royal Ottawa
85    Eagle Ranch
86    Chateau Whistler
87    Cobble Beach
88    Copper Point - Point
89    Royal Montreal – Red
90    Predator Ridge – Predator
91    Glen Abbey
92    Bayview
93    Magna
94    Cataraqui
95    Taboo
96    Kananaskis - Mt. Lorette
97    Le Maitre
98    Credit Valley
99    Dundas Valley
100    Beaconsfield
 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 09:32:27 PM by Wayne_Kozun »

Pete_Pittock

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2022, 07:21:01 PM »
Wayne,
Unluckily, in reply #33 you skipped over the 13th ranker. Is it a course without Merritt?


Never mind, fixed with elan and grace
« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 09:41:16 PM by Pete_Pittock »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #35 on: July 25, 2022, 08:27:20 PM »
I can forgive any false pauses from 100 to 11, given that awesome top ten. You could play them and never want for more in life. It says a lot that I haven't played any of them. Four are within 90 minutes of me, while three more can be had with a trip to the maritimes. Three more with a trip to the west and bazoinks, that's Canada's top ten.

#13 is Sagebrush and is well-received by this band of monkeys. I suspect it was an oversight.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #36 on: July 25, 2022, 09:26:16 PM »
Wayne,
Unluckily, in reply #33 you skipped over the 13th ranker. Is it a course without Merritt?
Now fixed!
That was very Sage of you to not just Brush it off!

Mike Baillie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #37 on: July 25, 2022, 09:41:21 PM »
With the list complete some thoughts or observations:
1. Only a difference of less than 1.5 points from 1 to 100 where as the Confid Guide has solid 8s at the very top and 5s even 4s towards the bottom.  I'm not a fan of how Score ranks using several criteria.
2. Not clear what a valid result is in such a subjective exercise but could courses really gain or lose 30 places in 2 years?
3. Like Ron points out above, the Top Ten is awesome.  If / when another breaks through in the future it better be good.
4. Seems Doug Carrick courses lost some favor with many down from 2020 including Magna and Cobble Beach substantially.


It would seem better to do a Top 50 ranked and Next 50 somewhat like Golf Magazine did with their Top 100 World then Next 50.  Finally, I still like the ranking Ben CD, Ian Andrew and Jeff M did on this site 15 years or so ago better especially in the 11 through 25 range - inserting the Cabots and perhaps a few other newer / improved.

Peter Pallotta

Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #38 on: July 25, 2022, 09:51:39 PM »
Ben, I don't know enough to enter a meaningful discussion with any of you gents, but I wanted to say thanks for your posts on this thread, and for the attempt to kick-start an in-depth assessment/re-assessment of gca in Canada. It sure is needed. For the last 25 years, these lists have been dominated by courses I've described as 'Golden Age Lite'  -- none of the calories, but not much of the taste either. You use the word bland, and the term expertly mediocre. Of the dozen or so I've played, I wouldn't disagree. Solid, playable courses,  but not what I think of when I imagine a 'top 100'. And, though I know it sounds strange, I do find myself wishing they were less 'pretty'.



« Last Edit: July 25, 2022, 10:11:51 PM by PPallotta »

Brett Meyer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: SCOREGolf Top 100 in Canada for 2022
« Reply #39 on: July 26, 2022, 07:14:11 AM »
I just came back from a trip to Cape Breton and I'm really surprised not to see the Lakes at Ben Eoin on this list. Now those are the only courses I've played in Canada, but I would think that if Highlands Links is top 10, the Lakes should at least be in the 50-60 range. The former is better, but there can't be a >100-Canadian-courses-in-between difference between them.