Stupid Rules Question

[Kalen Braley]

You can also buy putters with vertical lines on them as well...

Either way the point is the arbitrary nature of some alignments methods being allowed, and others not...

And you can buy drivers with alignment lines on them in all sorts of directions. So…

Of course "some alignment methods are allowed, and others not." You can't have a caddie line you up. You can't lay a club down to align yourself. That's how rules work - you define what is and isn't allowed.

Erik,

That's true, but my prior comment stands.  Of course rules are needed to govern all sports, but I would hope there would be rational conversations around how they are chosen & written and consistency is maintained between related rules. 

P.S.  When in doubt, look to Walter from the Big Lebowski for guidance! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiQmQhA-OrM

[JohnVDB]

Rob: You misunderstood the rule. If you marked a ball off the green, you could never clean it, but you could always reorient it, if that’s the word. If you would have had to hit mud on the ball before it was marked, you could and still can replace the ball in the same place but with the mud away from where you would strike it.

Has that always been the rule? We had a woman who was a usga rules official at my club. Did a lot of girls tournaments. She was the one who told me you couldn't change the orientation but this was about 30 years ago.

Rob,
Decision 21/5,which was the same as the current Interpretation, was added in 2002.  Before that the Rules said nothing regarding this. The way the Rules work, if there is no prohibition regarding something you can do it.  Therefore before 2002, you could even tee it up on the mud.  The Decision was added to prevent that.

[Rob Marshall]

Thanks for setting me straight. good to know.

[JohnVDB]

 

 I couldn't believe that Harrington couldn't rake the bunker before dropping his ball. He made the tracks pulling his ball out of the plugged lie??

Rob, this is complicated.

Rule 8 covers playing the course as you find it.

Rule 8.1 covers what you can do in the areas defined under the Conditions Affecting The Stroke, these are: the area of intended stance, lie of ball, line of play and area of intended swing as well as where you might be dropping a ball.  Rule 8.1d talks about restoring conditions after the ball came to rest.  For example if another ball creates a pitch mark in the fringe in front of your ball you can repair it.  But, Rule 8.1d(2) says you can't restore conditions if you worsened them, which is what Harrington did.

However, since Rule 8.1 only covers the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, this only covers where he was going to take his stance for his next shot.  So what about the rest of the area he disturbed in the bunker.

That is covered by Rule 8.2.
Here is that Rule:

8.2 Player’s Deliberate Actions to Alter Other Physical Conditions to Affect the Player’s Own Ball at Rest or Stroke to Be Made
a. When Rule 8.2 Applies
This Rule only covers a player’s deliberate actions to alter other physical conditions to affect his or her ball at rest or stroke to be made.
This Rule does not apply to a player’s actions to:
 

• Deliberately deflect or stop his or her own ball or to deliberately alter any physical conditions to affect where the ball might come to rest (which is covered by Rules 11.2 and 11.3), or
• Alter the player’s conditions affecting the stroke (which is covered by Rule 8.1a).

b. Prohibited Actions to Alter Other Physical Conditions
A player must not deliberately take any actions listed in Rule 8.1a (except as allowed in Rule 8.1b, c or d) to alter any such other physical conditions to affect:
 

• Where the player’s ball might go or come to rest after his or her next stroke or a later stroke, or
• Where the player’s ball at rest might go or come to rest if it moves before the stroke is made (for example, when the ball is on a steep slope and the player is concerned that it might roll into a bush).

Exception – Actions to Care for the Course: There is no penalty under this Rule if the player alters any such other physical conditions to care for the course (such as smoothing footprints in a bunker or replacing a divot in a divot hole).
Penalty for Breach of Rule 8.2: General Penalty.

So, if Harrington wanted to rake the bunker to ensure his ball wouldn't end up in the mess he created were it to roll back, he couldn't do it.  But, if he had said, I want to do this to care for the course, the Exception applies and he could do it. Even if he said, I want to make sure my ball doesn't roll back in there and I want to make sure to rake the bunker to care for the course he could.  Before 2019, the old Rule said you could rake if it was "solely" for care of the course.  "Solely" was taken out meaning that if part of your reason is to care for the course you.

Again, note that this exception only applies in Rule 8.2, not Rule 8.1 so you can't do it in the areas covered by the Conditions Affecting the Stroke.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Has that always been the rule? We had a woman who was a usga rules official at my club. Did a lot of girls tournaments. She was the one who told me you couldn't change the orientation but this was about 30 years ago.

She was wrong even then, IIRC.

Edit: Dammit JVDB! Beat me to it again. 

[Joe Hancock]

Has that always been the rule? We had a woman who was a usga rules official at my club. Did a lot of girls tournaments. She was the one who told me you couldn't change the orientation but this was about 30 years ago.

She was wrong even then, IIRC.

Edit: Dammit JVDB! Beat me to it again. 

Love the fake edits….

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Love the fake edits….

Nope. You get a few minutes to edit without the thing "edited" thing being applied.

Removed the word "do" after posting it just now. Then deleted an extra blank line between the paragraphs in a second edit.

[Rob Marshall]

 I couldn't believe that Harrington couldn't rake the bunker before dropping his ball. He made the tracks pulling his ball out of the plugged lie??

Rob, this is complicated.

Rule 8 covers playing the course as you find it.

Rule 8.1 covers what you can do in the areas defined under the Conditions Affecting The Stroke, these are: the area of intended stance, lie of ball, line of play and area of intended swing as well as where you might be dropping a ball.  Rule 8.1d talks about restoring conditions after the ball came to rest.  For example if another ball creates a pitch mark in the fringe in front of your ball you can repair it.  But, Rule 8.1d(2) says you can't restore conditions if you worsened them, which is what Harrington did.

However, since Rule 8.1 only covers the Conditions Affecting the Stroke, this only covers where he was going to take his stance for his next shot.  So what about the rest of the area he disturbed in the bunker.

That is covered by Rule 8.2.
Here is that Rule:

8.2 Player’s Deliberate Actions to Alter Other Physical Conditions to Affect the Player’s Own Ball at Rest or Stroke to Be Made
a. When Rule 8.2 Applies
This Rule only covers a player’s deliberate actions to alter other physical conditions to affect his or her ball at rest or stroke to be made.
This Rule does not apply to a player’s actions to:
 

• Deliberately deflect or stop his or her own ball or to deliberately alter any physical conditions to affect where the ball might come to rest (which is covered by Rules 11.2 and 11.3), or
• Alter the player’s conditions affecting the stroke (which is covered by Rule 8.1a).

b. Prohibited Actions to Alter Other Physical Conditions
A player must not deliberately take any actions listed in Rule 8.1a (except as allowed in Rule 8.1b, c or d) to alter any such other physical conditions to affect:
 

• Where the player’s ball might go or come to rest after his or her next stroke or a later stroke, or
• Where the player’s ball at rest might go or come to rest if it moves before the stroke is made (for example, when the ball is on a steep slope and the player is concerned that it might roll into a bush).

Exception – Actions to Care for the Course: There is no penalty under this Rule if the player alters any such other physical conditions to care for the course (such as smoothing footprints in a bunker or replacing a divot in a divot hole).
Penalty for Breach of Rule 8.2: General Penalty.

So, if Harrington wanted to rake the bunker to ensure his ball wouldn't end up in the mess he created were it to roll back, he couldn't do it.  But, if he had said, I want to do this to care for the course, the Exception applies and he could do it. Even if he said, I want to make sure my ball doesn't roll back in there and I want to make sure to rake the bunker to care for the course he could.  Before 2019, the old Rule said you could rake if it was "solely" for care of the course.  "Solely" was taken out meaning that if part of your reason is to care for the course you.

Again, note that this exception only applies in Rule 8.2, not Rule 8.1 so you can't do it in the areas covered by the Conditions Affecting the Stroke.

Interesting and complicated.

[Jim_Coleman]

   Having access to John here and David Staebler at home is like getting physics advice from Einstein.

[JohnVDB]

   Having access to John here and David Staebler at home is like getting physics advice from Einstein.

Thanks. David and I confer frequently. In fact we might be going to dinner tonight.

[Jim_Coleman]

  Say hello for me.

[JohnVDB]

  Say hello for me.

Will do.