US Open Week: Is The Country Club The Great *American* Golf Course?

[John Kirk]

Everybody has an opinion.

I think it looks great for a U.S. Open, with plenty of width, deep rough and sloped greens.  Deep bunkers and tricky uphill approach shots, too.  At this early juncture it is unclear whether the final leaderboard will feature a good complement of players considered among the world's best.  Some courses (like Olympic) don't favor the world's best as decisively.  So far, there are lots of relative unknowns near the top.

Tomorrow and Saturday should be very difficult, with winds in the 15-20 mph (SW on Friday and NW on Saturday) range.  Overall, today was a very good day of TV tournament golf. 

[Joe Hancock]

Just getting my first glimpse of the US Open on TV. The only turf I’d be able to have a chance of hitting a decent shot is on the tees. Fairways look like greens, approaches look like greens, greens look like really fast greens, and the rough looks like a meadow.


I couldn’t play that setup….and I sure wouldn’t enjoy it. Glad the pro’s and few am’s can manage.

[David_Tepper]

Some of the fescue rough is really out of control. Worse than the infamous rough at Carnoustie for the 1999 Open. Is it really necessary?

[Peter Pallotta]

Fairways look like greens, approaches look like greens, greens look like really fast greens, and the rough looks like a meadow.

Heck of a good line there, beautifully written, and with the cadence just right. And all that from a respected industry professional and (when he feels like paying attention ) low handicap golfer in his own right. I know, I know: it's the US Open, etcetera etcetera; but sometimes a non industry outsider with the predilections of an aging mid handicapper is comforted in knowing that what he 'sees' in a golf course is not merely a figment of his imagination, or of a gnawing envy.

[Joe Hancock]

Some of the fescue rough is really out of control. Worse than the infamous rough at Carnoustie for the 1999 Open. Is it really necessary?

You are probably using the word “fescue” generically, as a definition of any grass allowed to grow unchecked and unmaintained. This “fescue” that you’re seeing is more likely a combination of fescues, ryegrasses and bluegrasses. It is unplayable, and a “naturalized” area consisting primarily of “fine fescues” wouldn’t be so tall or lush, and would be much more playable.


TV hasn’t helped with the perpetuation of the word “fescue” as any grass left unmaintained.

[jeffwarne]

Just getting my first glimpse of the US Open on TV. The only turf I’d be able to have a chance of hitting a decent shot is on the tees. Fairways look like greens, approaches look like greens, greens look like really fast greens, and the rough looks like a meadow.


I couldn’t play that setup….and I sure wouldn’t enjoy it. Glad the pro’s and few am’s can manage.

I will say the bunkers looked quite manageable.
Fairways ain't "fair"ways anymore unless you're a low single digit.

[Joe Hancock]

Just getting my first glimpse of the US Open on TV. The only turf I’d be able to have a chance of hitting a decent shot is on the tees. Fairways look like greens, approaches look like greens, greens look like really fast greens, and the rough looks like a meadow.


I couldn’t play that setup….and I sure wouldn’t enjoy it. Glad the pro’s and few am’s can manage.

I will say the bunkers looked quite manageable.
Fairways ain't "fair"ways anymore unless you're a low single digit.

I was thinking specifically of you as I saw ball after ball “settle” into the same low spot. They said on the telecast that they had to put netting on the low spots prior to the Open to prevent more divots…..should be a clue to someone, shouldn’t it? You always say that the sidehill lie has been all but eliminated with the modern mowing heights, and you’re right!

[David_Tepper]

Joe H. -

I will gladly defer to your far greater knowledge of the grass types in play at TCC. I was referring not to the dark green grasses in the rough lining the fairways and surrounding the greens, but rather to the longer yellow/tan/brown "wild" grasses on the various knolls/hillocks, in some of the ditches and further out of play. Whatever the types of grasses that are in those areas, I think they were allowed to grow much too long.

DT

[Terry Lavin]

This golf course exemplifies the strategic principles behind the old school effort to defend par on the ground, whether it’s the rough, the bunkering or the so-called native grasses. Add the wind and the meteorological elements and you have a way to defend an old, historic and familiar course against the best in the game in a major. Not to forget firm and fast setup, even when rain is in the forecast.


The native grasses kill the members every day even though they’re not native: they’re planted to torture the player. But I’ll take that every day over bowling alley, tree-lined fairways that thwart access toward the green.


To me, this course and this course setup is as good as it gets for a classic course for a US Open. There are dozens of Open Championship venues that provide this regularly.


Here’s hoping this is the new normal for premier US courses and hosts for US majors.

[Dan_Callahan]

I was there today and will be going back Sunday. A few observations:


1. These are the tightest fairways I’ve ever seen. The look and feel when you walk across them almost seems fake.


2. I’ve played TCC a few times, I know they say Hanse expanded the greens during the renovation, but they seem way smaller than I remember. Maybe it’s because the rough is so long, but damn … with the wind blowing, they are so tough to hit.


3. The 10th is one of the most amazingly natural inland holes in the world.


4. The 11th is one of the best short par 3s in the world.


5. I have never been to a pro tournament where it was so difficult to walk around the course. The wait at the crossing areas at times was outrageous … literally 20 mins at one spot, at which point we bailed and walked back the other way. In many places, the crossing spots are right in landing areas, so just as one group finishes hitting their second shot, the group on the tee is teeing off, so there’s no chance for spectators to cross. It gets very frustrating.


6. Because of all the blind and semi-blind shots, and the hilly terrain, it’s sort of a tough viewing course for spectators.


7. When it’s 85 degrees out with 100000% humidity, cigar smoke is the last thing you want enveloping your face.


8. It’s oddly impressive how many people are able to start drinking at 10 am and are still standing at 6 pm.


9. Jon Rahm absolutely pounds the ball.


10. I heard very little obnoxious comments from the crowd … not even the ubiquitous “mashed potatoes” or “get in the hole,” which was refreshing. Given what happened at the Ryder Cup, and considering the tension around LIV, I was nervous the peanut gallery might get out of hand. I didn’t see that. Thankfully.

[jeffwarne]

Based on what I saw of TCC on TV today, I can't remember the last time the USO was played on a course where the rough (and beyond the rough) was so deep and over grown. Am I right (or wrong) about that?

In places it was, in others it wasn't.
I was there today and I enjoyed seeing the rough.
saw some very skillful shots played-I never agreed with the theory that rough and even heavy rough around the greens deskilled the short game.The better the wedge played the more they distinguish themselves in inconsistent often quirky grassy lies with various textures and lies.
The "chipping areas" thing had gotten a bit overdone IMHO and the course had a raw look to it that I liked.
In many places the native had been mowed to give the gallery a better places to walk, and the result was a bit more playability in those areas.
An occasional old school Open is cool.


Kudos to TCC and the USGA on an awesome venue.
TCC is incredible.

I dislike the 80s style rough crowding the greens and bunkers marooned in rough...hope this set up doesn't come back in style because it will trickle down to a ton of courses. Most of all though I dislike the crazy high rough seemingly scattered about the property willy nilly, but sometimes fairly close to lines of play, including bunkers. It's a shame because the layout and the property look excellent for golf 🤷. This stuff is OK for the US Open which comes to town every few decades, but man, the thought of clubs following this concept isn't a positive for golf.

Ciao

agreed re:monkey see-monkey do and wouldn't want clubs to adopt a steady diet of it.
I just like seeing the "retro" 80's look-occasionally-not as another trend/fad.
The "chipping area" setup of the last few years had gotten a bit contrived and faddy on some sites and specific holes, often in areas where they were never designed to be such, with the ball running a long way from the hole, hardly distinguishing between a one foot or 30 yard miss-cool occasionally too, but recently overdone IMHO.

[AChao]

I wouldn't say TCC is THE great American Course, but it is "A" great American Course.  If forced to answer which course is THE great American Course, I'd say there are 5-10-ish that make up a collection and I'd include TCC in it.
Before I go into more detail, let me just give the following background information.  I last played TCC around 15 years ago, and in the late 80's and early 90s, I played TCC over 100 times.  I'm one of a small group of people who aren't members but were very lucky to have access to playing the course on weekdays for 5 months-ish of the year.
One difficulty of evaluating the course is that if someone plays the Clyde and Squirrel nines as most guests do (and from the back tees as they are normally out), it is a medium-difficulty course.  Even if one plays Primose the same day, I wouldn't say it's harder than most medium-difficulty courses.  Playing the US Open Composite Course that they have now or the one for the Ryder Cup and the '88 Open is something totally different. 

In fact, seeing what I've seen on TV Thur and Fri, it looks like the greens are medium in firmness and slightly soft and the course is also.  I should caveat that 10 years ago, I thought the course was very soft, but that in the years after the '88 open, the greens were hard and firm, and the fairways were variable.  One difficulty of controlling the firmness in the Fall and Spring was that it rained so often and winds could be fairly strong. 

One point related to Paul Rudovsky's point about playoffs ... I've been texting some friends who are playing-in or part of the entourage of a player ... one point that I noted and mentioned is that TCC is a very difficult course to achieve separation as a leader, but one where a bunch of bogies can happen in a nano-second. 

For example, on 11 (and the green looks much bigger than it did before) ... a shot a few feet away from the hole location toward the edge can easily trickle into rough that can lead to a bogey.  On 14, Lingmerth hit two great shots and was about 60 ish yards away -- a great chance for birdie, suddenly became a bogey when he hit his wedge over the little ridge 10 feet past the hole and then putted 5 feet past on his birdie putt and missed the par putt.  In the first round, Kevin Na was -3 after 5 holes and was +5 for the day two hours later.

On many holes, the key to scoring well is good defense.  On the easy holes, birdies are great, but pars at worst are needed -- that being said, even the easy holes can be bogeyed.
I personally love TCC, but that could be because of a bias from my good fortune in getting to play it so many times.  I do have a few friends who played Clyde and Squirrel and wonder how it can be a Top 10, or 20 or even 50 course.  Again, Clyde, Squirrel, Primrose are very different from the course being played this week.

[jeffwarne]

I was there today and will be going back Sunday. A few observations:


1. These are the tightest fairways I’ve ever seen. The look and feel when you walk across them almost seems fake.


2. I’ve played TCC a few times, I know they say Hanse expanded the greens during the renovation, but they seem way smaller than I remember. Maybe it’s because the rough is so long, but damn … with the wind blowing, they are so tough to hit.


3. The 10th is one of the most amazingly natural inland holes in the world.


4. The 11th is one of the best short par 3s in the world.


5. I have never been to a pro tournament where it was so difficult to walk around the course. The wait at the crossing areas at times was outrageous … literally 20 mins at one spot, at which point we bailed and walked back the other way. In many places, the crossing spots are right in landing areas, so just as one group finishes hitting their second shot, the group on the tee is teeing off, so there’s no chance for spectators to cross. It gets very frustrating.


6. Because of all the blind and semi-blind shots, and the hilly terrain, it’s sort of a tough viewing course for spectators.


7. When it’s 85 degrees out with 100000% humidity, cigar smoke is the last thing you want enveloping your face.


8. It’s oddly impressive how many people are able to start drinking at 10 am and are still standing at 6 pm.


9. Jon Rahm absolutely pounds the ball.


10. I heard very little obnoxious comments from the crowd … not even the ubiquitous “mashed potatoes” or “get in the hole,” which was refreshing. Given what happened at the Ryder Cup, and considering the tension around LIV, I was nervous the peanut gallery might get out of hand. I didn’t see that. Thankfully.

That was a perfect analysis on all points.


RE:#1 agreed,the fairways and walkways were super-super tight-almost milky looking.
Very difficult to get around and following a group impossible.

[Brian_Ewen]

Before I put todays bet on, does anybody know what time they will start watering the greens?

Or was it just a one off yesterday?

[Carl Rogers]

Some of the fescue rough is really out of control. Worse than the infamous rough at Carnoustie for the 1999 Open. Is it really necessary?

Yes it is if the USGA wants to defend par.  Otherwise it is just another tour event with 25 under winning.

[David_Tepper]

"Yes it is if the USGA wants to defend par.  Otherwise it is just another tour event with 25 under winning."

Carl -

I understand that, but how about keeping the rough maybe 10"-12" inches high and having a winning score -8 to -10? Playing out of rough deep as it now is a TCC is as much a question of luck as it is over skill. Maybe more so.

DT

[Carl Rogers]

"Yes it is if the USGA wants to defend par.  Otherwise it is just another tour event with 25 under winning."

Carl -

I understand that, but how about keeping the rough maybe 10"-12" inches high and having a winning score -8 to -10? Playing out of rough deep as it now is a TCC is as much a question of luck as it is over skill. Maybe more so.

DT

Agreed.


Am watching the tournament right now.  Very montonous .... balls rocket through the green & then the lucky hack out .... hole after hole.

[Kalen Braley]

Uggh, NBC coverage is horrific.  80-90% of coverage is just guys putting or chipping around the green.  Cmon, show us the course....

[Sean_A]

Based on what I saw of TCC on TV today, I can't remember the last time the USO was played on a course where the rough (and beyond the rough) was so deep and over grown. Am I right (or wrong) about that?

In places it was, in others it wasn't.
I was there today and I enjoyed seeing the rough.
saw some very skillful shots played-I never agreed with the theory that rough and even heavy rough around the greens deskilled the short game.The better the wedge played the more they distinguish themselves in inconsistent often quirky grassy lies with various textures and lies.
The "chipping areas" thing had gotten a bit overdone IMHO and the course had a raw look to it that I liked.
In many places the native had been mowed to give the gallery a better places to walk, and the result was a bit more playability in those areas.
An occasional old school Open is cool.


Kudos to TCC and the USGA on an awesome venue.
TCC is incredible.

I dislike the 80s style rough crowding the greens and bunkers marooned in rough...hope this set up doesn't come back in style because it will trickle down to a ton of courses. Most of all though I dislike the crazy high rough seemingly scattered about the property willy nilly, but sometimes fairly close to lines of play, including bunkers. It's a shame because the layout and the property look excellent for golf . This stuff is OK for the US Open which comes to town every few decades, but man, the thought of clubs following this concept isn't a positive for golf.

Ciao

agreed re:monkey see-monkey do and wouldn't want clubs to adopt a steady diet of it.
I just like seeing the "retro" 80's look-occasionally-not as another trend/fad.
The "chipping area" setup of the last few years had gotten a bit contrived and faddy on some sites and specific holes, often in areas where they were never designed to be such, with the ball running a long way from the hole, hardly distinguishing between a one foot or 30 yard miss-cool occasionally too, but recently overdone IMHO.

I would rather watch greenside recoveries from shorter grass than guys stabbing thru above ankle bone rough circling the greens. Plus, it looks completely contrived to my eye. Relying on nasty rough a mere few feet from from greens which are small smacks of trying determine the winning score.

Ciao

[Adam G]

I was there the last 3 days (including a very fun day with some GCA-ers!).
I think the course is showing itself beautifully. The weather in Boston this spring has been cool, dry, and windy and we are seeing all of that this week and the course is really firming up. It's a true challenge. I am a particularly big fan of the two par 5s, which are challenging the pros in ways that par 5s typically do not. The 11th played havoc today as a downwind hole. 10 and 3 were brutally hard but showed why they are two of the best natural par 4s in the world. 6 is a great green with some awesome hole locations. And 17 is a really fun and tricky hole late in the round especially downwind.
I realize a lot of people around here aren't fans of the long grass everywhere, but that's just what TCC is and has always been. The USGA has done a really nice job letting the course play the way it was intended. As for the "fescue" -- it's ugly in some places but the rough really seems manageable in most spots. I know last June the USGA and super did a practice rough grow out and people were dropping balls one foot in and couldn't find it. That's not how it's playing. Is there fescue in some places around the greens (and particularly in front of grandstands so people can't backboard)? Yes. But miss in the right spots and its reasonable, although challenging.
On the ground at least, the tournament seems like a smashing success. The logistical plan has been impeccable. Traffic impact has been minimal. Corporate sales were as high as they have ever been. The course is a bit tough to get around with some choke points and some greens have very few hole locations (4, 10, and 12 come to mind), but on net it has been wonderful.
I would be shocked if TCC does not get offered another Open. Given how much the USGA likes celebrating anniversaries (already giving the 2051 to Oakland Hills and 2030 to Merion), I wouldn't be surprised to see TCC awarded 2038 for the 125th anniversary of Ouiment's win, and hopefully we can see it again before 2063.
Also just saw the hole locations for tomorrow. Hold onto your hats it's going to be really difficult.

[Ira Fishman]

On TV, it reminds me a lot of Winged Foot circa 1974. Different architecture but brutal set up, and I remember it being a bit blustery and semi-overcast.

[Peter Pallotta]

I wouldn't say TCC is THE great American Course, but it is "A" great American Course.  If forced to answer which course is THE great American Course, I'd say there are 5-10-ish that make up a collection and I'd include TCC in it.
Before I go into more detail, let me just give the following background information.  I last played TCC around 15 years ago, and in the late 80's and early 90s, I played TCC over 100 times.  I'm one of a small group of people who aren't members but were very lucky to have access to playing the course on weekdays for 5 months-ish of the year.
One difficulty of evaluating the course is that if someone plays the Clyde and Squirrel nines as most guests do (and from the back tees as they are normally out), it is a medium-difficulty course.  Even if one plays Primose the same day, I wouldn't say it's harder than most medium-difficulty courses.  Playing the US Open Composite Course that they have now or the one for the Ryder Cup and the '88 Open is something totally different. 

In fact, seeing what I've seen on TV Thur and Fri, it looks like the greens are medium in firmness and slightly soft and the course is also.  I should caveat that 10 years ago, I thought the course was very soft, but that in the years after the '88 open, the greens were hard and firm, and the fairways were variable.  One difficulty of controlling the firmness in the Fall and Spring was that it rained so often and winds could be fairly strong. 

One point related to Paul Rudovsky's point about playoffs ... I've been texting some friends who are playing-in or part of the entourage of a player ... one point that I noted and mentioned is that TCC is a very difficult course to achieve separation as a leader, but one where a bunch of bogies can happen in a nano-second. 

For example, on 11 (and the green looks much bigger than it did before) ... a shot a few feet away from the hole location toward the edge can easily trickle into rough that can lead to a bogey.  On 14, Lingmerth hit two great shots and was about 60 ish yards away -- a great chance for birdie, suddenly became a bogey when he hit his wedge over the little ridge 10 feet past the hole and then putted 5 feet past on his birdie putt and missed the par putt.  In the first round, Kevin Na was -3 after 5 holes and was +5 for the day two hours later.

On many holes, the key to scoring well is good defense.  On the easy holes, birdies are great, but pars at worst are needed -- that being said, even the easy holes can be bogeyed.
I personally love TCC, but that could be because of a bias from my good fortune in getting to play it so many times.  I do have a few friends who played Clyde and Squirrel and wonder how it can be a Top 10, or 20 or even 50 course.  Again, Clyde, Squirrel, Primrose are very different from the course being played this week.

Thanks, AChao - I much appreciated this perspective.

[Ben Stephens]

I have to say that I have been impressed with the Country Club this week. The course set up is different to 1988 and it is set up for a modern US Open hopefully there will be more there sooner than later. The rough is rather juicy 


Its a good way of having a 18 hole championship course within a 27 hole course which is more friendly for members as the pros only play there once a generation. It might be a way forward in terms of golf course design in terms of flexibility and user friendly so that it is adaptable to any form of set up.


The other strong example of this is Royal Melbourne's composite course within its 36 holes. I wonder what ranking both these courses would be in the world had they used their composite layout rather than Clyde/Squirrel and West course respectively.


Would a composite course work well elsewhere like Sunningdale/Medinah/Olympia Fields or even Bandon Dunes etc?

[Ben Stephens]

Joe H. -

I will gladly defer to your far greater knowledge of the grass types in play at TCC. I was referring not to the dark green grasses in the rough lining the fairways and surrounding the greens, but rather to the longer yellow/tan/brown "wild" grasses on the various knolls/hillocks, in some of the ditches and further out of play. Whatever the types of grasses that are in those areas, I think they were allowed to grow much too long.

DT

David - I was at the 1999 Open at Carnoustie all week and played it a few weeks before there was hardly any rough and they put in what looked fertiliser during my round - then unseasonal wet and warm weather hit. Some of pros came up which was not familiar with them the course and a juicy rough - Paul Lawrie worked his way round pretty well when others didn't and Van De Velde's meltdown also was a contributory factor. Since then there have been two Opens won around 8 under ish.


Curtis Strange and Nick Faldo were 6 or 7 under in 1988 when the course was a par 71


Cheers
Ben

[Mike Hendren]

I seem to recall a slightly left of centerline bunker in the 17th fairway.  Correct?


Mike