A real Strategy Discussion

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jack Nicklaus and Nick Faldo disagree — over a key piece of course management (golf.com)

[JESII]

First of all, I’m 99% confident Hogan said you never aim where a straight shot would get you in trouble. 99% is not 100%, but certainly someone on here remembers…




My two cents is that if you have good control of the ball and can move it both ways pretty well you sim away and work towards trouble because it should be more comfortable, as Jack said.

[Jason Thurman]

It's a salient question for me. I've played probably 90% of my rounds the last few years on my home course, where it's essential to be able to stay away from recurring trouble left. I've gotten good at that (for a high-single-digit player who will always make mistakes). A recent tournament on an away-course revealed that I'm not as good at avoiding trouble right...


My most reliable play is to cut the ball away from trouble left. My pro taught me a go-to shot last year that, with very rare exceptions, truly does take the left side out of play. I never aim right at trouble... I always choose a starting line that gives a little buffer for a ball that hangs dead straight, but my preference is to turn away from the trouble.


I struggle with the right side though, because my miss with a draw tends to be a block. Although I'll also occasionally hook one. Maybe the thing that Nicklaus, Hogan, and Faldo would all agree on is that you're better off hitting a cut if you can, at least when you need to avoid trouble. It tends to go straighter, at least for me!

[Rob Marshall]

I was taught to work the ball towards the trouble. I'm pretty sure that has been discussed here and it's not necessarily the right approach.......

[Jeff_Brauer]

All the pros I know of that generation aimed away from trouble and curved it back, so I side with Jack.    Eoesn't everyone tee it up on the same side of OB or water and aim as far away as possible from the 2 stroke penalty?  I don't know anyone who would tee it up on far side of the tee, aim at the road, and bring it back in bounds.  Although I have to say, without as much control as those guys, both aiming at a hazard and trying to curve away and aiming away and curving towards a hazard are both a bit scary.


I believe the basic thought was to set up to prevent going (for example) left, i.e., at worst a straight ball, and then aim at the left edge of the target, knowing the worst you would be was left edge of fw or green.  If set up to block a hook, a slight fade would be expected, then it was up to your then current confidence level as to how aggressive you got, and you always felt it was your fault if you overcooked the fade into the hazard.

[Mark Smolens]

When we moved to Naperville in '72, we joined Cress Creek, one of the two clubs in town. Not much to talk about in terms of architecture, but it was always in nice shape and had fast and true greens. It was a housing dvpt course, and there was out of bounds left on every hole. My Dad, whose handicap would start at 12ish in the spring and get down to 7 or 8 by the end of the season (two games a week with an occasional bucket of balls after dinner during the week) developed what he called the "Cress Creek block." Most of the good players at the club did the same. Left was always dead so he never hit it there. Once the folks moved to AZ in '82, it took Dad a couple of years to get his ability to hit a draw back. The year he passed away ('90) he was a 6.3 at age 63.

[JohnVDB]

When we moved to Naperville in '72, we joined Cress Creek, one of the two clubs in town. Not much to talk about in terms of architecture, but it was always in nice shape and had fast and true greens. It was a housing dvpt course, and there was out of bounds left on every hole. My Dad, whose handicap would start at 12ish in the spring and get down to 7 or 8 by the end of the season (two games a week with an occasional bucket of balls after dinner during the week) developed what he called the "Cress Creek block." Most of the good players at the club did the same. Left was always dead so he never hit it there. Once the folks moved to AZ in '82, it took Dad a couple of years to get his ability to hit a draw back. The year he passed away ('90) he was a 6.3 at age 63.

Many years ago, I joined a course called Rock Creek Country Club in Portland.  Like your course, it wasn’t much, but since it had OB on the left of 17 holes  (only 2 on the right) we all developed the “Rock Creek Block”.

[Steve Lang]

    Didn't hear Sat, but they talked again on Sunday about 16th... and since BH had just bombed in that long put on 15, I don't think he cared where it was on the green...

Faldo used to say if he's playing approach with a draw or fade he plays/aims to center safety in case it doesn't work as desired. 

If right brain says I'm going for a carry or pin, I don't argue, if left brain starts talking I'm with Jack all the way

[Dan_Callahan]

Maybe parsing words here, but if it's a course I know well, I try to think in terms of identifying places I know are safe, and I aim there. If I start thinking about avoiding trouble, I'm screwed because I'm a mental midget.

[Jeff_Brauer]

"Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond......."


Oh, crap........at least I didn't think of the word elephant.

[A.G._Crockett]

All three of these gentlemen knew exactly where their ball was going, in which direction it would curve, and how much it would curve and roll. 


I know none of those things.

[Peter Flory]

Another solution is to aim comfortably away from trouble and hit a straight ball at that target (or your natural ball flight).  i.e. why bother curving it? 

[Tommy Williamsen]

When I was young and a better player I would aim at the hazard if it were on the right because I could hook my ball on command. Not so with one on the left. No I aim away from trouble.

[jeffwarne]

Speaking as an expert on this , the drop is far better if you go the Nicklaus route.
They're both right-do what works best for you.


For many, identifying the hazard/OB and then selecting a target a safe distance away(i.e. outside of their range of statistically common misses), even if the rough,then playing their normal flight, or best flight, makes sense-assuming one remains committed to their original and safe target.
Example: There is water on the left, therefore I will committ to a target in the right third of the fairway.(assuming the right is just rough)


That's why I hated playing in south Florida(seriously). It often came down to the water(drop) being better than the OB(retee)....

[Michael Felton]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iNDZ0EdBGk


Seems to me like you can aim it somewhere that would be trouble if you know it's going to move. Playing a hole with a small central bunker, I'll aim straight at it and hope that it goes one side or t'other. Also, the one time I played Sawgrass, on 18 I aimed it well into the lake and hit what I knew would be a "big fade" that wound up in the middle of the fairway. You just gotta know your game. If I'd aimed that shot somewhere safe, my second would have been played out of the trees on the right.

[Tom_Doak]

The most amazing pressure shot I have ever seen live was Hal Sutton starting his ball out over the lake on the 72nd hole at the TPC in 1983 and cutting it back into the fairway - with a one-shot lead IIRC.


My impression is that the majority of players now hit their stock shot, whether a draw or fade, regardless of which side the trouble is on.  Koepka always hits fade with driver, but sometimes chooses to hit his 3-wood if he feels a draw is more comfortable.

[Tom_Doak]

PS  Is this really strategy?  I thought it was tactics.

[mike_beene]

Re Hogan, didn’t he go left of the center bunker on 6 at Carnoustie all 4 days right down that OB fence? He was not perhaps aiming out of bounds, but he was sure he wasn’t going left. My take on listening to Nicklaus is he would have gone right of the bunker and maybe even turned the ball back, but I don’t know how he actually played 6 over the years(and Carnoustie was only used a few times in his career).

[AChao]

Yes … I would categorize more as tactics vs strategy as well.

PS  Is this really strategy?  I thought it was tactics.

[Matt_Cohn]

I wouldn’t want my ball curving towards trouble if it’s going to land somewhere firm and continue bouncing in that direction.

[Jason Thurman]

Another solution is to aim comfortably away from trouble and hit a straight ball at that target (or your natural ball flight).  i.e. why bother curving it?

Genuinely interested to know if this is how you go about it. You're a player that most of us could learn a lot from!


I do think for me, as a guy who doesn't have nearly the command that you have, using curve helps me control a miss. If I play for a straight ball, I can miss it anywhere within an 80 yard wide cone pretty easily. If I play what I call my "never-miss-left cut shot," I'll very rarely miss left.


The same doesn't hold true for a draw though. I can block a draw right at the drop of a hat. So I'm still trying to figure out the best way, tactically, to approach shots when I absolutely can't miss right.

[Peter Pallotta]

I think clever architects manage to consistently dupe me into believing that 'this hole calls for a draw off the tee, to set up the best angle in' or that 'I need to fade it here to take full advantage of the fairway contours', and like a sap I fall into their trap every single time without fail, and this despite knowing with near certainty that:

1. the only club I can draw is a hybrid, and that if I consciously try to power fade my driver it can turn into a weak block slice in a heartbeat, and
2. that in my entire golfing life I've been hurt by a well struck straight ball exactly never times.

Those cold hearted bastards are taking advantage of my insecurities as an average golfer and taunting me into trying shots that I have no business trying, and that are unnecessary even if I could pull them off.

Good players have nothing to prove in that regard, to themselves or anyone else, and so don't get duped by the same tricks. That's why architects try to mess with their heads differently, eg by creating unlucky bounces, and by allowing hackers to get away with murder (but only IF they are content to accept themselves as hacks!)

[Jeff_Brauer]

PS  Is this really strategy?  I thought it was tactics.

I would be interested in hearing your definition of the difference.....

[Ira Fishman]

"Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond.......Don't hit it in that pond......."


Oh, crap........at least I didn't think of the word elephant.

My wife actually repeats out loud, "There is no water there" several times. I have not convinced her that it might not be the most effective psychological approach.


Ira

[Ira Fishman]

First of all, I’m 99% confident Hogan said you never aim where a straight shot would get you in trouble. 99% is not 100%, but certainly someone on here remembers…




My two cents is that if you have good control of the ball and can move it both ways pretty well you sim away and work towards trouble because it should be more comfortable, as Jack said.

I find it amusing that Faldo who was such a great player needed to invoke Hogan to get Nicklaus to engage on the topic. At least he was subconsciously self aware enough to not try to put himself up against Nicklaus (plus Faldo played in accordance with Nicklaus's philosophy).


I assume Nicklaus saying he was not as good as Hogan was just a polite throwaway line, but when I was young, I do remember the respect and reverance that even the best of the Nicklaus generation had for Hogan.