OT: LIV field

[Jim Sherma]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

[Wayne_Kozun]

The USFL and WFL threw big money at top players like Steve Young, Herschel Walker, Jim Kelly etc. and ultimately failed in challenging the established league, the NFL. The LIV will fail too because the end product doesn't match the established tour.

The AFL, with a mix of old players like George Blanda and new faces, succeeded. The NFL sued for peace in 1966 and the AFL was delighted to merge with the established league.

There was a similar result in the next decade with the ABA and WHA.  They ended up getting several franchises merged in.  I don't remember the details of the ABA but the WHA lured away some big name players, most notably Bobby Hull.


And in the ABA the Silnas brothers made the best deal ever in sports:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/monteburke/2014/01/07/the-nba-finally-puts-an-end-to-the-greatest-sports-deal-of-all-time/?sh=f5e574f0ba3b

[Dan_Callahan]

Rickie hasn't jumped (yet?).

No, not officially. But literally every single player who was rumored to be making the jump has, in fact, made the jump. Even when they previously denied it (looking at you, BDC). And now rumors are that Bubba and Matt Wolff are headed to LIV as well.

[Bruce Katona]

Below is from the USA Today article on PGA Tour members playing in the LIV Event:[/size]



"Players who have resigned their PGA Tour membership won't be eligible for the FedEx Cup Playoffs and will not be allowed to play in PGA Tour events as "a non-member via a sponsor exemption or any other eligibility category."[/color]
[/size][/color]
[/size]I call BS on the last part since if Wells Fargo or another long-time corporate partner of The Tour wanted DJ, Bryson or a certain Mr. Woods (if he so chose to cross the line) in their event and The Tour said no to a sponsor exemption; if I were the CEO I'd take my sponsorship money and go and play in another sand box.[/color]

[Jon McSweeny]

Has anyone heard anything about how LIV intends to handle club sponsors?
I understand that the big manufacturers are not interested currently, but if a big slice of the top players jump to LIV, hard to see them staying away forever.
It occurs to me that one way LIV could leverage all of the guaranteed money they are allegedly throwing around is adopting some type of new model where the LIV tour gets a healthy chunk (if not all) of the club sponsor money. Not only would this approach directly recoup some revenue, it could give LIV great leverage in the equipment market.

The current PGA model- with players keeping the club money- is basically an accident of history. No reason to assume that LIV adopts it. Has anyone heard anything on this topic?

[cary lichtenstein]

I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.


The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.


I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.

Cary

I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.

I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.

Ciao

Sean:


If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary

[Erik J. Barzeski]

No, not officially. But literally every single player who was rumored to be making the jump has, in fact, made the jump. Even when they previously denied it (looking at you, BDC). And now rumors are that Bubba and Matt Wolff are headed to LIV as well.

Rickie told one of his close friends on Tour just a few days ago he wasn't going.

[David_Tepper]

"No, this isn't good for golf"

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/liv-golf-reality-show-pga-tour?utm_medium=email&utm_source=060922&utm_campaign=hitlist&utm_content=DM28565&uuid=9861c6da148243648f1aa92679fb32a0

[Tony_Muldoon]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

The Saudi's have a huge mountain of Cash and it's source is looking to have limited future.  they need to ensure future streams of income and they share Warren Buffets problem, its not easy to find places to make BIG investments that have the potential to grow. (It's a long time since I read up on the Boston Consulting Group Matrix but this seems like a case study).


In the short term they can invest HUGE money in the hope that at some point the returns will be significanlty huge.




PS Think Greg has told the Saudi's that the importance of Majors is overrated?

[Sean_A]

I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.


The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.


I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.

Cary

I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.

I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.

Ciao

Sean:


If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary

US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage of idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.

Ciao

[Philip Caccamise]

An observation...


The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.


Just saying.

[Wayne_Kozun]

An observation...


The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.

What was DJ’s issue?  And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

What was DJ’s issue?  And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.

Technically then neither was Oakmont.

[Philip Caccamise]

An observation...


The five 'headliners' brought in from the PGA Tour (Johnson, Mickelson, Garcia, DeChambeau, Reed) have all had pretty major rules issues while playing on tour.

What was DJ’s issue?  And don’t say Whistling Straits as that wasn’t on tour.

No, I was on his side on that one. His rules issues were off-course.

[archie_struthers]

 


Wayne that Snippet about the Silnas Bros was awesome

[Mike Wagner]

I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.


The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.


I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.

Cary

I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.

I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.

Ciao

Sean:


If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary

US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.

Ciao

Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.

[Brian_Ewen]

It gets more baffling by the day





In a letter sent to the agents of Phil Mickelson, Dustin Johnson, Bryson DeChambeau, Patrick Reed and Kevin Na, 911familiesunited.org expressed their outrage towards the players for competing in the Saudi-backed events.

“As you may know, Osama bin Laden and 15 of the 19 September 11 hijackers were Saudis,” wrote the organisation’s national chair Terry Strada, a mother of three whose husband, Tom, was on the 104th floor of the north tower of the World Trade Center during the attacks.

“It was the Saudis who cultivated and spread the evil, hate-filled Islamist ideology that inspired the violent jihadists to carry out the deadly 9/11 attacks.


“And, most egregiously, it is the Kingdom that has spent 20 years in denial: lying about their activities, and cowardly dodging the responsibility they bear. Yet these are your partners, and much to our disappointment, you appear pleased to be in business with them.

“Please, do not insult our loved ones’ memories and take the pathetic position, as one of your foreign colleagues did last week, claiming you are “just golfers playing a game” or blandly treating the evils of the Saudi regime as “human rights” concerns.

“You are all Americans, keenly aware of the death and destruction of September 11. Whether it was the appeal of millions of dollars of hard cash, or just the opportunity to prosecute your professional grievances with the PGA, you have sold us out.

“This is a betrayal not only of us, but of all your countrymen.”

https://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/uk-sport/20203898.families-9-11-victims-outraged-americans-taking-part-liv-golf-series/

[Sean_A]

I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.


The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.


I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.

Cary

I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.

I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.

Ciao

Sean:


If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary

US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.

Ciao

Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.

We already know the Chinese are an unsavoury lot. But they sure do lend a ton of money to the US. Americans don't care who they deal with...this was established a long time ago. I don't know why so many find this a hard concept to grasp. Folks, the US is miles from the squeaky clean country it portrays itself to be. If we start from the position of being reasonable honest it is much easier to have conversations about the issues and problems which need to be addressed.

Ciao

[Mike Wagner]

I think opinions on this board and elsewhere are going to change as time goes by and everyone realizes that PGA Tour guarantees you nothing, unlike every other sport. This is about free agency and one's right to do as they please.


The PGA coffers are full. If you do not make the cut, you get nothing. If you don't get endorsements you get nothing. If you are hurt, nothing. These signing bonus's are wonderful.


I still think it's for the 35+ year old golfer but perhaps I'm dead wrong.

Cary

I don't think many question the right of free agency. Many simply don't like the free agency income source...and for very good reasons. On the other hand, there are very good reasons these same people should be directing their anger at the US government and US companies. These entities provide the framework for this crazy golf scenario.

I would like nothing more than the US government, US companies, US golf tours and pros to 100% swear off Saudi or any dirty money. But that ain't gonna happen. So I don't see the point in slamming the last guys in the dirty money sweepstakes line when that line stretches beyond the horizon. Shit, we all benefit from cheap Saudi oil. I hear wars are fought over the stuff.

Ciao

Sean:


If we want to throw daggers at countries, the first one goes to China. Those 1.3 billion poor citizens are oppressed, can't speak out, are killed and in concentration camps, and everyone from Apple to Tesla do major business with them. They are the source of probably 50+% of Walmarts products. They are the source of the pandemic and continue to cover it up. The Chinese have single handedly destroyed entire industries in the US with more to come.
Cary

US consumers destroyed American industries. Cheap t shirts and shitty plastic toys are too difficult to say no to. Don't blame the Chinese for taking advantage idiot Americans. You would have to blame Japan and Germany for destroying the US car industry if that were the case.

Ciao

Interesting you write only about this part of Cary's response.

We already know the Chinese are an unsavoury lot. But they sure do lend a ton of money to the US. Americans don't care who they deal with...this was established a long time ago. I don't know why so many find this a hard concept to grasp. Folks, the US is miles from the squeaky clean country it portrays itself to be. If we start from the position of being reasonable honest it is much easier to have conversations about the issues and problems which need to be addressed.

Ciao

Not a country (or person) on earth that's squeaky clean. American idiots, well ... yes, there are quite a few of them indeed. People are very good at being hypocrites when it benefits them / suits their agenda.

[John Kavanaugh]

The PGA tour wants to show us how it still has the greatest players. Korn Ferry set up on Sunday. 29,29,31 for the leaders on the front nine. They always think they are one step ahead of the average golfer. Play to our stupidity. That’s why I hate them.


On the positive side. Jim Nance is showing to be a true patriot not cashing out for an easy extra 200 mil. Those balls of steel must sooth his voice. A game changing legend without question.

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

[Brian_Ewen]

“Why is this group spending so much money — billions of dollars — recruiting players and chasing a concept with no possibility of a return?” he said. “At the same time, there’s been a lot of questions, a lot of comments, about the growth of the game. And I ask, ‘How is this good for the game?’”

“You’ve got true, pure competition, the best players in the world here at the RBC Canadian Open, with millions of fans watching. And in this game, it’s true and pure competition that creates the profiles and presences of the world’s greatest players. And that’s why they need us. That’s what we do,” Monahan said.

[Will Thrasher]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.


With that being said, I will be curious as to the "strings attached" for the players that are signing up. Nothing is free, and if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have a feeling some of these guys are going to be subjected to some media availability/appearance requirements that they wouldn't otherwise be thrilled about, not to mention likely have to wear some interesting looking uniforms.

[Ken Moum]

I wonder what the Saudi's think the ROI is on this huge spend. Hundreds of millions of dollars is not meaningless even to them. The horse racing and soccer club investments at least result in purses and assets that bring money back into their coffers. Unless my assessment of what some future level of broadcasting rights could result in I do not understand any business rationale for this level of spend.

That is the whole point - there is no traditional "ROI." Nobody can compete with this model as it makes zero financial sense. The whole point is sportswashing, period.


With that being said, I will be curious as to the "strings attached" for the players that are signing up. Nothing is free, and if something seems too good to be true, it probably is. I have a feeling some of these guys are going to be subjected to some media availability/appearance requirements that they wouldn't otherwise be thrilled about, not to mention likely have to wear some interesting looking uniforms.

Paulina in a burqa?

[Tommy Williamsen]

Am I the only one offended by the play of the 911 card?

Maybe not, but the relatives of the victims are allowed to play that card. It's their call.