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Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #225 on: June 07, 2022, 03:00:44 AM »
Sean & Niall -

Can you offer a comprehensive data-based system of player performance globally that, in your opinions, provides a more accurate, more objective ranking?  Can you tell us in what way the OWGR is flawed?

http://www.owgr.com/about

DT

Nope, but you know that isn't the point. Because OWGR may be the best system doesn't mean it isn't based on subjective underpinnings. Otherwise, how in the world did Europe beat the US in all those Ryder Cups? How many times did we hear about "on paper the US....".

BTW... Fran Quinn qualifying at Brookline is pretty cool.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 08:16:00 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #226 on: June 07, 2022, 07:09:59 AM »
Sean & Niall -

Can you offer a comprehensive data-based system of player performance globally that, in your opinions, provides a more accurate, more objective ranking?  Can you tell us in what way the OWGR is flawed?

http://www.owgr.com/about

DT


David,


Some people prefer the Sagarin rankings better. I think the argument is they do a better job of reflecting recent form and strength of field.


https://rankings.golfweek.com/rankings/default.asp?T=world


One example of the owgr not necccesssarily proving a strong field.
Matthew Wolff for example has been completely out of form and a 500/1 non factor in the majors this year.  Has recently dropped out of top 50 owgr and is about 200th in the Sagarin rankings which is a far more accurate representation of his form.  Any major that replaced him with a qualifier would have a stronger field.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #227 on: June 07, 2022, 11:40:46 AM »
You have to think with the recent string of PGA Tour resignations that the organization is reeling. It will be interesting to see what kind of public relations tact the PGA Tour takes. Finally I don’t think there was much doubt that Fowler would break ranks after DJ announced his intentions.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #228 on: June 07, 2022, 11:52:34 AM »
It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend.  Is this a big negative to its chances of success?  Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?

Dave Doxey

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #229 on: June 07, 2022, 01:12:55 PM »
It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend.  Is this a big negative to its chances of success?  Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?


Not complicated.  I'm planning to watch on my TV using YouTube on Roku.  Most of my TV viewing is streamed.


It will be interesting to see how LIV is covered: commercials, Trackman, stats, number of cameras, etc.

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #230 on: June 07, 2022, 01:23:54 PM »
i was thinking about LIV as I was driving this morning and certain things stand out. No cut, 3 rounds and shotgun start. With the shotgun start, everyone gets the same draw, same weather, same greens, same wind/rain, no waking up in the middle of the night to prepare. No waiting around all day if your in contention. Much easier life for the pro golfer, more consistent sleep patterns, I don't know if it will be less stressful, certainly with no cut, that takes alot of the pressure off. I don't think I like the change to 3 rounds.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #231 on: June 07, 2022, 01:25:20 PM »

It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend.  Is this a big negative to its chances of success?  Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?



Less complicated, than a normal weekends golf viewing, for me.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #232 on: June 07, 2022, 03:01:27 PM »
Lou,


What do you think of a charity structure based on rich dudes playing in Pro ams? Should skipping work to play golf be a tax deduction?


As you probably know (and are baiting me), the politics of taxation make my Galician blood boil.


In general, I think that the fairest tax is one that is broadly applied, next to impossible to avoid, and levied at the lowest possible rate to raise the necessary revenues for a frugal, effective government.  IMO, current income is the best base to apply this broad, minimalist rate.


In my world, charity would still be a highly-valued societal trait, one that is best done quietly, but for those who need to broadcast their extraordinary virtue by attaching their names to roads, buildings, parks, foundations, etc., all is good.  Results are what counts after all.  Of course, all charitable contributions are done AFTER tax, i.e. zero deductions from income of any type.


The application of taxes to property is also of great interest as it creates a variety of incentives and disincentives which are often overlooked.  In Lou's world, all properties, whether they'd be a TPC course, a church, a government building, our homes, our places of work, etc. would be included in the tax base and no matter what the tax status is of its owner, they would be required to pay those property taxes.  Afterall, in may states, property taxes are a main source of revenues to fund public education, and what is more important than our precious children!


IMO, it is unfair for my ISD to remove 40 acres of prime commercial land for a typical high school from the tax rolls and shrinking the base, forcing the remaining taxpayers to take up the slack through a higher (mill) rate.  Surely schools would have to consider just how big their Taj Mahals need to be if they had to include ad valorem taxes in their operating budgets.  Ditto for churches like the one I attend which is building its fourth area campus (circa $20 Million?) while its other three campuses seldom reach more than 65% occupancy.  Better asset utilization is achieved, I think, by incurring the full costs of decisions.


How the PGA Tour maintains its non-profit status with all its many opaque businesses and enviable balance sheet is beyond my understanding.  I do wonder who benefits most by this special treatment.  At least the players pay huge income taxes including in those states where they play but don't reside there.


JVB-


I assume that Tour employees are paid based on committee and consultant recommendations which reflect market levels suggested by surveys.  I am ok with all that.  And perhaps I don't understand the need for such high levels of assets, hopefully properly allocated toward earning high tax-advantaged income as a buffer for an unforeseeable future catastrophe.


My preferences: sweeten the pension pot for past players who helped make the Tour such a success; review the purse structure to see if compensation is commensurate with that of other sports after considering the differences in income streams; be a bit more generous to the volunteers by improving such simple things as required uniforms, basic food, and scheduling.


Before Phil's tongue got loose and Norman doubled-down on his competitive league, somebody might ask why bother fixing the PGA Tour since it seems to be at historic peak performance.  It may resist change and opening up, but I wouldn't be so sure that this current challenge will whither quickly and things go back to normal.  All organizations benefit from continual assessment with an overriding objective to always improve.  Having watched Colonial CC in person recently reduced to hitting greens out of the rough with mostly wedges offers one such opportunity: bifurcation of balls and clubs for tournament play.


   


 


 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 03:05:00 PM by Lou_Duran »

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #233 on: June 07, 2022, 03:28:25 PM »
Sean -

Using the results of the Ryder Cup matches to discredit the OWGR (or the Sagarin if you prefer) is a weak argument at best given that a) the matches are held every other year b) it is a match play event and c) 2/3's of the matches are either four-ball or foursomes. It would be a bit like ranking the best tennis players in the world based on who wins the doubles tournaments. :)   


If those rankings are suspect, what are we to make of the constant debate/discussion here of golf course ratings/rankings, which are based on subjective judgements made with little or no statistical/quantifiable data?


The former are almost nuclear science compared to the musings of the latter. (IMHO ;) )   


DT


 
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 04:33:37 PM by David_Tepper »

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #234 on: June 07, 2022, 05:15:29 PM »
Question … what’s the TV companies position on this?
I ask as I noticed that Sky have announced they’ve extended their deal with the US PGA Tour.
Atb



PS - Wasn’t there ‘team’ pro tennis for a while back in the 1980’s. What became of it?


Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #235 on: June 07, 2022, 05:22:05 PM »
i was thinking about LIV as I was driving this morning and certain things stand out. No cut, 3 rounds and shotgun start. With the shotgun start, everyone gets the same draw, same weather, same greens, same wind/rain, no waking up in the middle of the night to prepare. No waiting around all day if your in contention. Much easier life for the pro golfer, more consistent sleep patterns, I don't know if it will be less stressful, certainly with no cut, that takes alot of the pressure off. I don't think I like the change to 3 rounds.


The whole format is uninteresting -- it reminds me more of an exhibition than a golf tournament.


I haven't seen or heard anything that makes it sound like it will be fun to watch. If they were playing on great golf courses that might be enough to watch even with the boring format, but as is, it's just going to be guys playing mediocre courses with very little on the line.

Tim_Cronin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #236 on: June 07, 2022, 05:22:24 PM »
Question … what’s the TV companies position on this?
I ask as I noticed that Sky have announced they’ve extended their deal with the US PGA Tour.
Atb



PS - Wasn’t there ‘team’ pro tennis for a while back in the 1980’s. What became of it?



No TV outlet with PGA Tour or DB World (European) Tour connections is carrying the LIV Golf telecasts. LIV hired the same company that produces DB World telecasts to produce its telecasts, from mobile units to 50 cameras, etc. LIV hired its own announce crew and producer/director. YouTube and the LIV website will carry those telecasts.


YouTube, which many "smart" TVs can get via a home's Internet server, actually has pretty good reach. Its record for live tune-in is over 8 million for the guy who jumped from the edge of space back to earth a few years ago. Now, if Greg Norman does that, he might get a similar audience.


World Team Tennis, the brainchild of Billie Jean King, still exists, though not as a full-scale league (Chicago Aces, Boston Lobsters, etc.).
« Last Edit: June 07, 2022, 05:29:09 PM by Tim_Cronin »
The website: www.illinoisgolfer.net
On Twitter: @illinoisgolfer

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #237 on: June 07, 2022, 05:30:59 PM »
"This sounds more like an exhibition than a golf tournament."


To the extent this is true, it makes it more difficult to count the results in the World Golf Rankings, which make it less likely that participants will qualify for majors.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #238 on: June 07, 2022, 05:36:56 PM »
Thanks Tim
Atb

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #239 on: June 07, 2022, 05:49:48 PM »
World Team Tennis website:

https://wtt.com/

There is no info to indicate WTT will be operating in 2022, but maybe it will start up again in the fall.

Daryl David

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #240 on: June 07, 2022, 07:39:28 PM »
It appears that there will not be any live television coverage of the LIV event this weekend.  Is this a big negative to its chances of success?  Is anyone planning on undertaking some complicated system to watch it on streaming services?


Complicated???

Edward Glidewell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #241 on: June 07, 2022, 08:51:40 PM »
"This sounds more like an exhibition than a golf tournament."


To the extent this is true, it makes it more difficult to count the results in the World Golf Rankings, which make it less likely that participants will qualify for majors.


That's going to be a serious issue for the players that made the leap. They're small field events without many top players; the available OWGR points will be pretty small. Since they can't play in normal PGA Tour events and there are only 8 of these events with fewer points available, it seems almost inevitable that the OWGR of these players will plummet.

That will potentially keep them out of the majors (as you mentioned), except for the guys who are already exempt for other reasons.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #242 on: June 07, 2022, 10:34:25 PM »
If there were a team concept which the top 48 players in the world played, and it were sponsored by some generic multi-national, would there be interest?


I suspect yes.

Bryan Izatt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #243 on: June 07, 2022, 10:59:04 PM »

If you want to know about the events and TV coverage try the LIV site at    https://www.livgolf.com/

There seems to be a lot of non-golf activity.  I wonder how many will be attracted by that?

What's the over-under on attendance at the first event?  Has it been promoted in the UK?

Will their servers crash from demand for the video feed. 

How many will stay around to 7 pm for the après golf concerts?

There is 5 times as much prize money for the individual competition as there is to the team competition.  The team competition seems to be a decided second fiddle.

Oh, and they're looking for volunteers.



Ken Moum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #244 on: June 07, 2022, 11:20:42 PM »
I don't think anybody knows what's going to come next in this battle, but there are a couple of things I haven't heard mentioned much. 


Let's imagine half of the top 50 OWGR list bails and goes to LIV.  With a field of 48, in a shotgun start, where does that leave 25 players who aren't stars?  And how do they decide whether #48 on the OWGR list is "better" for the future of LIV than, say, Poulter or Piot?  (We all know where Chase Koepka, Peter Uihlein, Richard Bland, etc., etc. fit.)


These guys who are joining up keep saying they want to "be able to play when and where I choose." Does anyone really think that when they take tens, or hundreds of millions of dollars from the organizers they still get to NOT play in the events?


As far as watching the golf, the current system of sending leaders out last, and keeping score over and under par is completely TV-driven that was developed over several decades. (Thank you Cliff Roberts, IIRC.)  It's lead to massive crowds and grandstands around the finishing holes, because that's where the drama occurs. 


How will it play with viewers and on-site spectators when there are players finishing simultaneously on 18 different greens? Imagine three players tied at -15 with one hole to play, they are on the tee at 18, 14 and 7. Put yourself in the shoes of the TV crew deciding what to put on the screen...then go take a valium.


On the issue of majors, every one of them currently uses OWGR rankings for qualification in some way.  This is a relatively new phenomenon in the grand scheme, so it could be changed at any time.  But if they do keep it, and even if the LIV events do get points, those points are based on how many of the top 200 are playing in an event.  The current field isn't going to be piling up the points. (By the way, LIV applied for OWGR points some time ago.)


For the PGA Tour, a worst-case is that a big bunch of marquis names bolt, diluting your product and making half you tournaments about as valuable to TV and sponsors as the next Korn Ferry event.  But that might not be all roses for the LIV folks, either.  Their list of "members"  (employees?) has to be relevant, interesting, and perceived as the cream of the crop.


But are eight 54-hole, shotgun-start events really going to maintain the status of the players as the best-of-the-best? And a couple of years from now when it's obvious that these guys have really lost their edge, who gives a crap about the tour?


Suppose Phil, et.al. get what they want, the ability to pick and choose where they play, and that means they play all eight LIV events plus whatever their aging bodies can handle. They play in whatever majors they can get into and a a couple of PGA Tour events, where they get their asses handed to them by some young, hungry, 20-somethings.  Does LIV dump them all in favor of those young guns?


And at that point does the PGA Tour become a feeder tour for LIV? And what of the other, worldwide "feeder tours?"


I have no problem with Monahan doing whatever he thinks necessary to protect his product. Even though I think golf on TV is impossibly boring and barely worth a few minutes of my time outside of the majors, where seeing pro golfers face their own mortality, figuratively speaking, is delightful.
Over time, the guy in the ideal position derives an advantage, and delivering him further  advantage is not worth making the rest of the players suffer at the expense of fun, variety, and ultimately cost -- Jeff Warne, 12-08-2010

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #245 on: June 08, 2022, 02:09:22 AM »
I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.


Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #246 on: June 08, 2022, 02:27:37 AM »
Sean -

Using the results of the Ryder Cup matches to discredit the OWGR (or the Sagarin if you prefer) is a weak argument at best given that a) the matches are held every other year b) it is a match play event and c) 2/3's of the matches are either four-ball or foursomes. It would be a bit like ranking the best tennis players in the world based on who wins the doubles tournaments. :)   


If those rankings are suspect, what are we to make of the constant debate/discussion here of golf course ratings/rankings, which are based on subjective judgements made with little or no statistical/quantifiable data?


The former are almost nuclear science compared to the musings of the latter. (IMHO ;) )   


DT


 

Hey, I didn't introduce these stats. Pundits etc are the ones using them to talk about the RC. I am merely pointing out the limitations of the so called facts of OWGR. Call it what it is...a list based on underlying opinions. To pass this off as some sort of truth is a complete misrepresentation and numbers guys know it.

You won't find me suggesting the course rankings are anything but suspect.

Ciao
« Last Edit: June 08, 2022, 02:30:33 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #247 on: June 08, 2022, 08:43:17 AM »
I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.


I'm curious about this position Brian. If you were a stakeholder of the PGA Tour, how could you not feel threatened?


Are you limiting your view to the current roster of players? I'd suggest that's a mistake. The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.


As of this moment, Wednesday June 8th, 8:30 EST USA, I've heard Fowler, BDC and Patrick Reed have jumped. These may be false, but it seems with each bit of smoke, there's fire on this deal.


So, That makes 5 or 6 of the 20 most attention grabbing players over the last 10 years moving over. If that doesn't warrant some concern, I don't know what does...

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #248 on: June 08, 2022, 09:03:32 AM »
I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.
The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.


I agree that some players will wait until the off-season but guys are jumping ship in real time and will continue to do so. Money talks!


Rob Marshall

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #249 on: June 08, 2022, 09:48:09 AM »
I can't get over how some clearly feel very threatened by this tour.


I'm curious about this position Brian. If you were a stakeholder of the PGA Tour, how could you not feel threatened?


Are you limiting your view to the current roster of players? I'd suggest that's a mistake. The players not currently going will see the amount of money those "lesser" players make and be very tempted this off season.


As of this moment, Wednesday June 8th, 8:30 EST USA, I've heard Fowler, BDC and Patrick Reed have jumped. These may be false, but it seems with each bit of smoke, there's fire on this deal.


So, That makes 5 or 6 of the 20 most attention grabbing players over the last 10 years moving over. If that doesn't warrant some concern, I don't know what does...


Patrick Reed jumping is the best news I've heard concerning LIV if thru. Don't let the door hit you in the ass.........
If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett