OT: LIV field

[John Kavanaugh]

Lou,


What do you think of a charity structure based on rich dudes playing in Pro ams? Should skipping work to play golf be a tax deduction?

[Tim Martin]

I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.

[Rob Marshall]

Others besides Na have supposedly resigned as well.  It is a tactic to be able to play in the U.S. Open.  The Tour can't suspend a player that is no longer a member.  The idea being that the USGA wouldn't be able to honor a PGA Tour suspension.  I'm not sure they would have anyway.

Even if world golf points are given to LIV events, the current fields are small and don't have a lot of quality depth.  As a result, the points won't be great.  Couple that with only playing in a few events, and NA will see a big drop in his ranking by next year.  He may not be eligible for any of the majors as a result.  He'll have a bigger bank account.

Will anyone miss Kevin Na?

[Kalen Braley]

Lou,

I agree with your last post entirely.  I do think the Tour should certainly re-evaluate how it chops up the pie, including better benefits to the volunteers.

I just still think its entirely unreasonable to expect the Tour to be friendly towards a very direct threat like LIV.  They are undoubtedly feeling the pressure, even if they don't admit it publicly, and the last thing they want to do is ban someone like DJ, even if they wouldn't care about banning a no name young guy or aging player.

[Kalen Braley]

Others besides Na have supposedly resigned as well.  It is a tactic to be able to play in the U.S. Open.  The Tour can't suspend a player that is no longer a member.  The idea being that the USGA wouldn't be able to honor a PGA Tour suspension.  I'm not sure they would have anyway.

Even if world golf points are given to LIV events, the current fields are small and don't have a lot of quality depth.  As a result, the points won't be great.  Couple that with only playing in a few events, and NA will see a big drop in his ranking by next year.  He may not be eligible for any of the majors as a result.  He'll have a bigger bank account.

Will anyone miss Kevin Na?

Found this quote in an article on ESPN:

Na wrote. "If I exercise my right to choose where and when I play golf, then I cannot remain a PGA Tour player without facing disciplinary proceedings and legal action from the PGA Tour."

I'd be curious as to what legal action he is referring to....

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34036642/kevin-na-resigns-pga-tour-participate-liv-golf-series

[JohnVDB]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid.  Most are happy to be part of the events.  The Tour and the sponsors could be a bit more generous in terms of uniforms, food, and making it easier to serve, but these are very minor points.  I am suggesting that less money should stay with the bureaucracy and more allocated to the players, and that the response to competition might be more consistent and measured.  I also believe that the Tour's financial structure should be very transparent.

Lou, the entire PGA Tour expenses for salary are about 10% of their annual income. This is from their 2018 990 form. I don’t think that is excessive.

[Jim_Coleman]

  Wounded Warriors should be so good.

[Stewart Abramson]

I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.

I don't recall what I received food-wise at PGA events as it's been a long time since I've volunteered PGA, but I think I received food gratis.  The LPGA events I volunteer at provide breakfast and lunch gratis. The Curtis Cup did the same. They also opportunity to play the host club. I had no problem volunteering at PGA events. The time spent is well worth it to me and I think most people with the volunteer spirit don't have a need/desire to be paid. I've always paid for the uniforms and don't have a problem with that.

[A.G._Crockett]

The director of the TV broadcast might have nightmares if players in multiple groups are in contention with different finishing holes caused by the shotgun start.
Other shotgun start problems - eighteen finishing holes; overwhelmed practice facilities with all competitors having the same start time;  pace of play issues as it will only be a guesstimate until after Friday play. Will need a lot more cameras and camera crews. If they play in three-balls there will only be 18 groups, with more downtime for spectators. 


Saudi oil money with gas currently at $US 8.15/gallon


From a golf architecture standpoint, does a shotgun start diminish an architect's routing, since only 1/18 will experience it on any given day?

As of now, I don’t believe there is any sort of US TV contract at all for the Saudi events.  I’m not sure about elsewhere.

[Tim_Cronin]

There is no U.S. cable/network television deal and at this late date, likely won't be, at least for London. Fox was negotiating, likely for FS1 or FS2 placement, but LIV wanted too much.


The LIV-produced telecast will be on YouTube. Jerry Foltz is one of the commentators.

[Brian_Ewen]

Will anyone miss Kevin Na?

Anyone, or the PGA Tour?

[Brian_Ewen]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid.

How many events do volunteers pay to be there?


Ryder & Solheim Cups are two.

[Tim_Cronin]

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that volunteers should be paid.

How many events do volunteers pay to be there?


Ryder & Solheim Cups are two.

Almost all. You usually get a couple of shirts, a hat and maybe a jacket, plus food vouchers and free admission the rest of the week.

[Tim Leahy]

The LIVWTF has no chance. It will fail worse than the USFL and WFL. I will stay up until 4 am west coast time to watch the British Open if an American is in contention but for a team exhibition event where the teams change every week, the top players get an appearance fee to play on the tour and the leading golfers are washed up Euro Tour guys plus Na and DJ, no chance. I would rather watch bowling or wash my truck. TV ratings drive pro sports and the LIV has no chance to draw an audience regardless of who payrolls it.

[Niall C]

Presumably you are inferring that the Players and PGA has a stronger field?

They do.

Erik


Beg to differ. The Players is pretty much based on PGA Tour members whereas the Open is based not only on the best of PGA Tour but also best of elsewhere. The PGA Championship is similar to Players in that it is very much slanted towards US based players also.


Niall

[Tim Martin]

I’ve always been surprised that most(all?) of the PGA Tour events require the volunteers to purchase their uniforms and at best get a discount for food/beverages. Someone other than the volunteer should be picking up the tab for same.

I don't recall what I received food-wise at PGA events as it's been a long time since I've volunteered PGA, but I think I received food gratis.  The LPGA events I volunteer at provide breakfast and lunch gratis. The Curtis Cup did the same. They also opportunity to play the host club. I had no problem volunteering at PGA events. The time spent is well worth it to me and I think most people with the volunteer spirit don't have a need/desire to be paid. I've always paid for the uniforms and don't have a problem with that.

I was not inferring that volunteers should be paid but rather their uniforms and food be covered.

[Bryan Izatt]

Lou,

If you want to see the full facts of the PGA Tour from their 990 form, go to the following:

https://projects.propublica.org/nonprofits/organizations/520999206/202023219349309777/full

The "bureaucracy" has hundreds of people running the Tour as well as the Korn Ferry, MacKenzie, and Champions Tours.  Some of the players are part of the bureaucracy as advisors and are amongst the highest paid.  All in all the bureaucracy expenses doesn't seem huge given the $1.5B annual revenues.  Following is a summary.

Total Revenue                                              $1,534,021,881

Total Functional Expenses                          $1,461,249,307
Net income                                                         $72,772,574

Notable sources of revenue                                                                Percent of total revenue

Contributions                                                                         $0
Program services                                            $1,167,400,356                                              76.1%
Investment income                                            $102,782,755                                                6.7%
Bond proceeds                                                                       $0
Royalties                                                              $224,061,902                                               14.6%
Rental property income                                             $55,413                                                  0.0%
Net fundraising                                                                      $0
Sales of assets                                                       $34,262,088                                                 2.2%
Net inventory sales                                                     $919,421                                                0.1%
Other revenue                                                          $4,539,946                                                0.3%

Notable expenses                                                                                   Percent of total expenses
Executive compensation                                       $27,500,490                                                1.9%
Professional fundraising fees                                                $0
Other salaries and wages                                     $94,266,037                                                 6.5%

Other
Total Assets                                                        $3,384,025,893
Total Liabilities                                                   $2,149,896,019
Net Assets                                                           $1,234,129,874

Key Employees and Officers                                                                                    Compensation
Monahan Joseph W  (Commissioner)                                                                            $5,378,295
Streelman Kevin  (Player Director)                                                                                 $2,033,174
Spieth Jordan (Player Director)                                                                                       $1,850,775
Price Ronald E   (Chief Operating Officer)                                                                     $1,600,089

[JohnVDB]

Bryan,


It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave.  I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.

[Rob Marshall]

Bryan,


It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave.  I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.

If it’s listed as “compensation” it shouldn’t include winnings when they are independent contractors. Imo anyway.

[JohnVDB]

Bryan,


It should be noted that the players on the advisory board are listed on the 990 with their winnings on tour which is why Streelman and Spaeth are on the list you gave.  I’m not sure if their winnings are included in the totals above though.

If it’s listed as “compensation” it shouldn’t include winnings when they are independent contractors. Imo anyway.

I know it’s crazy, but since they are on the board, it has to be shown as compensation to the board members.  IRS rules I’m sure.


The other interesting thing is that the LLCs of the top money winners are shown in the 990 as contractors who got paid the most. The 2018 one shows the top contractor was one who built grandstands was #1 and Justin Rose’s LLC was second.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Beg to differ.

I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion. Both Opens can sneak up there sometimes, but the PGA Championship almost always has the strongest fields simply because of how the field is built, and the Players often has a strong field as well. Certainly (primarily due to the size), the Masters is often not in the top four. Sometimes it's not in the top six or seven.

Again, the Opens don't have the goal of having the strongest fields. If they did, they'd use the OWGR or some other criteria. Instead, anyone who meets the qualifying criteria and have a good couple of rounds of golf at the right time can play in them.

I was not inferring that volunteers should be paid but rather their uniforms and food be covered.

There are reasons volunteers are charged a small fee (it typically doesn't fully cover the cost of their uniforms). And many events will offer free food.

[Niall C]

Beg to differ.

I mean, this isn't really a matter of opinion.

Well, actually it is.


Niall

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Well, actually it is.

Nah. Look at the OWGR. And consider how the fields are built. The PGA primarily just goes off the game's best players. Some amateur who has a good day or two can play in an Open.

[Sean_A]

Well, actually it is.

Nah. Look at the OWGR. And consider how the fields are built. The PGA primarily just goes off the game's best players. Some amateur who has a good day or two can play in an Open.

All rankings of this nature have a degree of subjectivity. No list can definitely tell me who the fifth best player in the world is at any given moment...as an example. Just because numbers are involved doesn't make the OWGR factual. It's an approximation based on criteria set by people.

Ciao

[Erik J. Barzeski]

All rankings of this nature have a degree of subjectivity. No list can definitely tell me who the fifth best player in the world is at any given moment...as an example. Just because numbers are involved doesn't make the OWGR factual. It's an approximation based on criteria set by people.

I understand that, but the OWGR is a fairly well accepted standard. Hence, it's not "really" a matter of opinion. An opinion is whether chocolate ice cream is better than vanilla.

Both Opens have objectively weaker fields due to the very nature of how they build their fields: with qualifiers.

Go by Sagarin if you want, or some other sort of ranking: the PGA will almost always top the list. And again, my point is only to refute that the majors "want to have the strongest field." They don't. That's not a goal of theirs, or they'd have different qualifying criteria.