OT: LIV field

[Kalen Braley]

In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely.  No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...

Have you seen the price of oil? The Saudis are killing it. The return on investment is something they couldn’t buy until they signed Phil and the narrative was changed. What a perfect storm they have found themselves in. A bunch of rich guys are losing hold of their power. Not the biggest challenge facing us today.

I get it John,

But i'd like to think even they would be adverse to losing hundreds of millions indefinitely on a vanity golf tour that no one is watching full of mostly 'has beens' and 'never was' players...

[John Kavanaugh]

And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.

[Kalen Braley]

And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.

Operative word in that last quip being "stars" 

P.S.  You got me partially, I may tune in for the first event to check out the format and if they're going to use any XFL-like tactics to spice up the broadcast. But outside of that, given the list of courses they'll be playing, certainly won't be tuning in for them.

[Bernie Bell]

And we didn’t think we would watch movie stars on our phones.

Operative word in that last quip being "stars" 

P.S.  You got me partially, I may tune in for the first event to check out the format and if they're going to use any XFL-like tactics to spice up the broadcast. But outside of that, given the list of courses they'll be playing, certainly won't be tuning in for them.

If we're going full XFL, which I support, who gets the "He Hate Me" jersey?  Phil?  Or DJ? 

[John Kavanaugh]

It’s hard to care about some slippery footed kid that looks 40. No one will miss the Tour anymore than we miss Polo golf shirts.

[JESII]

I wonder about that John.


I doubt I would, but there seems to be a large number of people that enjoy the Tour.


There will be a place for the top golfers in the world to play for a lot of money…whatever and wherever that is.

[Steve Lang]

   ... and a place where the young hip golfer or golf fan can parlay something small into something big... sure the line will be interesting for the gamblers


just wondering if Norman's World Golf Tour concept hadn't been co-opted back in 90's by Finchem/Monahan to maintain PGA Tour control and morphed into the tour-stop like but no cut WGC events, would he still be so pissed to be the Great Disruptor of today?

[Daryl David]

Maybe we shouldn’t be so fast to criticize DJ for getting close to the Saudis. Maybe he is just ahead of the curve in sucking up to the Kingdom.




https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/biden-visit-saudi-arabia-country-vowed-treat-pariah-rcna31750


Granting a presidential visit to Saudi Arabia would mark a significant reversal for Biden, who promised on the campaign trail to treat the kingdom as a “pariah” state after the killing of Jamal Khashoggi, a Washington Post journalist and critic of the crown prince, at the Saudi Consulate in Istanbul in October 2018. The CIA later concludedthat Crown Prince Mohammed had ordered Khashoggi’s murder. The crown prince has denied any personal involvement in the killing.[/size][/font]
[/size]“They have to be held accountable,” Biden said in 2019 during an NBC News-Washington Post candidate debate.[/color]

[John Kavanaugh]

Gretzky played for the Oilers. Do you think DJ knows the difference?

[Rob Marshall]

Gretzky played for the Oilers. Do you think DJ knows the difference?

Now that is funny

[Tim_Cronin]

Nobody has the moral courage to call this what it is?   Come on!  This is sports washing of the ugliest kind!  The golf clubs letting these thugs use their course, their name, to promote this effort to make the Royal Family look like good guys is despicable.  Where has the honor that once ruled golf gone?

Sports-washing never works. If anything, this has drawn continued attention to the Saudi human rights failures, as does the F1 race the Saudis now host. It will continue to, just as an Olympics in China or Russia helps point out their failings.


Question for the group: If this has been the Premier Golf League, from which the Saudis heisted the original plan, or some other company (say, Amazon) starting a golf tournament series right now, would there be the same offense taken to the concept? Is the idea as bad as the presenters?

[Niall C]

Jim, +100 to your last post.

I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.

The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat. 

SMH....

Kalen and Jim,


I have no idea why they would voluntarily do it either but that is why most western countries have legislation to prevent or restrict companies/individuals from abusing whatever monopoly position they have. That I think was the point that Lou was making.


If you ignore for a moment the nature or identity of the different parties ie. that the Saudi's do many things that we in our liberal democracies find repugnant; the nationalistic feelings you might have for the PGA Tour; and the fact that many of the players are millionaires many times over, then you'll see that it is one party (the Tour) using their monopolistic position to restrain another party (the players) in how they may earn a living by endeavouring to prevent a third party (the Saudi's) from entering the market.


Adrian refers to the players having signed up to an agreement when they joined the Tour that restricts them playing in competing events. Again, ignore the fact that some of these players (not all) are very wealthy, and consider what they are being asked to sign up to. They basically sign up to a pact that says they give their image rights to help promote golf events along with the image of the event sponsors but in doing so aren't guaranteed a return, and in doing so are prevented from trying their hand elsewhere.


All the while the Tour, which I understand is set up as a charity, has a chief exec on many millions a year (presumably guaranteed) while sitting on funds of c.$1bn. I'm not sure that scenario would garner much sympathy in other walks of life.   


Niall

[John Kavanaugh]

Maybe we could quit killing ourselves and our children before we judge another country over a revenge killing. At least that dude 100% knew his actions had put himself in danger. Our babies just go to school.

[Jim Sherma]

Is it that the players are not being allowed to play elsewhere, or is it that they aren't being allowed to play elsewhere while staying on the PGA tour. I'm sure the PGA is not holding any gun to any player to stay. DJ is going to play. If the Tour's rules means that he won't be able to tee it up at next year's LA (insert corporate sponsor here) Open then that is the decision that DJ made.


Decisions have consequences. I'm sure if I started to accept money from a competitor for the same type of work I get paid for - my employer would hold me accountable.[size=78%] [/size]

[jeffwarne]

Is it that the players are not being allowed to play elsewhere, or is it that they aren't being allowed to play elsewhere while staying on the PGA tour. I'm sure the PGA is not holding any gun to any player to stay. DJ is going to play. If the Tour's rules means that he won't be able to tee it up at next year's LA (insert corporate sponsor here) Open then that is the decision that DJ made.


Decisions have consequences. I'm sure if I started to accept money from a competitor for the same type of work I get paid for - my employer would hold me accountable.

and you can bet the LIV contract was full of provisions....


Again, I'm noy judging anyone-they are free to do what they want,but there could be consequences, and the courts may well decide this.(no idea how that turns out)
But if I'm a sponsor, I'd prefer Rory over DJ, though some products might lean the other way.

[JESII]

This is the players tour. It was built and designed by them, for them. While they have handed off much of the administration and guidance to professionals...every move is made in their collective best interests.


Collective is a key word because surely Phil could have made more money if incentives were more weighted to the top end guys decisions have been made on the "one man, one vote" model and there are 100 times as many invisible guys in the 50 - 150 space than there are Phil Mickelsons.


I have a cousin who has worked as a club pro for most of the last 35 years but he did make it through Q School in the late 90's and had full status on the PGA Tour for the year. His on course earnings were about $30,000. Yep, 5 digits. Yet his endorsement and ancillary income was $300,000 based on his Tour Member status. Club and Apparel companies pay no name guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to play/wear their gear. Does the infrastructure that is The Tour get the benefit of delivering that? Afterall, they are the ones that run the tournaments and negotiate the contracts that make my cousin's hat and bag potentially profitable...


If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely!  In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?

[John Kavanaugh]

This is the players tour. It was built and designed by them, for them. While they have handed off much of the administration and guidance to professionals...every move is made in their collective best interests.


Collective is a key word because surely Phil could have made more money if incentives were more weighted to the top end guys decisions have been made on the "one man, one vote" model and there are 100 times as many invisible guys in the 50 - 150 space than there are Phil Mickelsons.


I have a cousin who has worked as a club pro for most of the last 35 years but he did make it through Q School in the late 90's and had full status on the PGA Tour for the year. His on course earnings were about $30,000. Yep, 5 digits. Yet his endorsement and ancillary income was $300,000 based on his Tour Member status. Club and Apparel companies pay no name guys hundreds of thousands of dollars to play/wear their gear. Does the infrastructure that is The Tour get the benefit of delivering that? Afterall, they are the ones that run the tournaments and negotiate the contracts that make my cousin's hat and bag potentially profitable...


If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely!  In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?

And all that money comes from us everyday golfers. What have we gotten in return that has earned our loyalty? All I ever got was a month of cart path only in the summer so we could host a Korn Ferry event where half the golfers can't beat me on any given hole half the time. No one watched, no one cared.

[JESII]

It got you the ability to make that asinine statement with certainty...

[jeffwarne]

It got you the ability to make that asinine statement with certainty...
[/quote


to be fair, he's talking about a course where half the golfers can't finish half the holes.....so there's no real way to know

[John Kavanaugh]

Just rewatched Casino. The number of times Lester is painted as a "Country Club Hustler" is worth the watch. Pimp didn't paint a low enough picture. It's why I carry a vanity handicap.


I'd still take on the bottom half of a KFT event if I only had to play nine individual holes as good as their worst. My point being that I gave up my course for the best part of the summer for dudes getting paid that weren't worth the effort it took to watch for free. I know I'm not alone in hating the tour and am enjoying watching it's demise.

[JESII]

Especially if you got to pick which holes after the fact, right John.




Hating the Tour is an interesting emotional response.






There will always be a Tour, don't get too excited. This one has just grown too big and bland for its own good.

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess I'm tired of making sacrifices for dudes who need to put on their big boy pants and go work for daddy like I did.

[Tim Martin]

I think the idea that the LIV players will get banned from the four major tournaments is far fetched. If they qualify they will be extended an invitation. The USGA, Masters, R&A and PGA of America don’t want to dilute their fields. If anyone balks it would be the PGA of America but I’m betting no to all.

[Sean_A]

If the PGA Tour is diluted by say 30% of its star power, would that effect those guys in the 50 - 150 range? Absolutely!  In my opinion they have every right and reason to not want to compete with the LIV Tour...or any other option. Would two Tours, each with half the best players be more attractive to audiences than one Tour with all of them?

Probably not the right question given that golf with one major tour and star power draw isn't very attractive even to a huge percentage of golfers.

Ciao

[JESII]

To you and me, perhaps Sean...but to the golf viewing public, I think the proof is in the pudding.


They are playing for tons of money every week. That money ultimately comes out of our pockets.