News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #75 on: June 02, 2022, 10:22:30 AM »
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #76 on: June 02, 2022, 10:34:59 AM »
What about sponsors?


https://www.golfwrx.com/677698/rbc-extremely-disappointed-with-ambassador-dustin-johnsons-decision-to-play-liv-golf-opener/



Didn't RBC help Aramco with their IPO?
Yes, but pretty much everyone was:


Saudi Arabian Oil Co. (Saudi Aramco) has issued, on Sunday Nov 10, its prospectus for the initial public offering (IPO) of a part of its shares.

The company named 25 underwriters to cover its IPO as follows:

1) Citigroup Saudi Arabia
2) Credit Suisse Securities (Europe) Ltd.
3) Goldman Sachs International
4) HSBC Saudi Arabia
5) JP Morgan Securities PLC.
6) Merrill Lynch Kingdom of Saudi Arabia
7) Morgan Stanley & Co. International plc
8) NCBC
9) Samba Capital
10) Al Rajhi Capital
11) Banco Santander SA.
12) BNP Paribas
13) BOCI Asia Ltd.
14) Credit Agricole CIB
15) Deutsche Securities Saudi Arabia
16) EFG Herms Saudi Arabia
17) First Abu Dhabi Bank
18) GIB Capital
19) Mizuho International PLC. 
20) RBC Europe Ltd.
21) Riyad Capital
22) Saudi Fransi Capital
23) SMBC Nikko Capital Markets Limited
24) Société Générale
25) UBS AG London Branch
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 10:37:10 AM by Wayne_Kozun »

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #77 on: June 02, 2022, 10:51:40 AM »
Geographically, LIV makes more sense than the PGA Tour for many Euros who don't want to base in the US/Florida.
But a whole bunch of these guys have been based in the US for a long time.  Like GMac, Poulter, etc that have been living at Lake Nona for a decade or more.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #78 on: June 02, 2022, 10:56:19 AM »
I’m curious from Ian and Lou, on the idea of free and fair competition;


How is the PGA Tour not competing fairly?


You certainly understand the value to the Tour of having their players play primarily on their Tour. They’ve apparently executed agreements to that effect. Why is it anti-fair competition to let the players choose one or the other tour?


Could you name a single business (small or large) that welcomes a threat into their market with open arms and full assistance?   Considering the resources (top players in the world) are extremely limited, I see no reason why they should encourage players to play in even a single LIV event.


I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance".  The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.


I am having a hard time finding the salaries for the top 13 PGA Tour execs, but Mr. Monahan in his first year as commissioner in 2017, was paid $3.9 Million (don't know if employee benefits and travel are included), which would put him around #20 in that year's money list (gross earnings, before expenses) without having to pull a club back and risk missing a cut/pay-check.  I know that other professional sports pay their top exec more, but that is at the discretion of the team owners which may or may not reflect the price discovery markets create, i.e. the ability to identify the next best qualified candidate and ascertain the price.


If the PGA Tour reflexively denied exemptions to play selected events on other tours, I might feel that its reactions are directionally justified IF the threatened ban was time-limited.  And before we get our highly selective moral compasses out to signal our great virtue, please consider that any number of products endorsed on the PGA Tour are originated from even worse places (e.g.how many here proudly sport the ubiquitous Nike Swoosh?).  The unfortunate thing about being consumers in a global economy is that we often have little choice as to whose products we support.  Proud of your EV?  Ever think about where the precious metals are coming from for the batteries and the terrible environmental damage they cause in their country of origin?


What might have been a better Tour reaction?  Perhaps a commitment to allow X number of exemptions for each tournament, based on some mutual agreement of how it is to be done.  Then see what happens.  While I think that any number of Tour players would likely chase the money, I suspect that the sportsmen up through their prime would select to compete at the highest level and still reap considerable rewards.


Phil was asking, many demanding is a better word, for an equitable distribution of the players' images and content directly to the players.  I think that this is a very fair request.  The Tour has balked- do we really want to talk about greed?  Perhaps the bureaucracy is valuing their contribution to the Show very highly, or maybe they are buying into the woke mentality that Merit is greatly overrated if not outright racist. 


A second demand that Phil may not have made is an extensive review of the Tour's pension program.  For whatever reason, GD had to piece an article together years ago for a lack of transparency.  I apparently incorrectly believed that it was based on the number of cuts made with a relatively low threshold.  With so much money flowing into the coffers at headquarters, I'd rather those who people came to watch be paid generously than the good staff members who are assured high pay, generous benefits, and great working conditions without much at risk. 
 








Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #79 on: June 02, 2022, 11:05:30 AM »
All anti-trust lawyers I have spoken with say that the PGA Tour will win the inevitable lawsuit.  But--we will see.
A more interesting question to me is what will happen when a player decides he made a mistake and asks to be reinstated on the Tour.  Will they forgive him?  Under what conditions?

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #80 on: June 02, 2022, 11:09:23 AM »
You sign up to membership when you join the PGA tour or European (Dubai Port World) Tour. That membership has RULES. If you break those rules you get a fine, if you continue to break those rules you will get bigger fines which end up being removed from that MEMBERSHIP.


The European tour has had these rules for years, regardless of icky money, you can decide to opt out one week but you can't opt out and go play in another event.


The rules are there as a two way contract, you don't slag off the sponsors or the course, you must give interviews. The tour provides the tournaments. If you go work/play on a rival tour you risk causing damage to YOUR tour which endangers your fellow members.


Seems a more simple breach of contract to me. If they play/continue to play LIV dont expect to be allowed on the PGA or DP tours, all the DP tour members have been warned.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Ian Mackenzie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #81 on: June 02, 2022, 11:23:38 AM »
I have zero respect for anyone that will work for a guy that chops up Americans with a butcher knife.   This is worse that diamond money.


I'm not coming to the defense of the House of Saud, Craig.
But, if pro sports were dependent upon the righteousness of their nation-sponsors, then I fear we would have no sports at all.


Or, how long is your "penalty box period" for nations that violate your moral code?
10 years? 50, 75...? Germany is obviously out of it by now as is Japan, etc.


The US was certainly forgiven (?) for invading a sovereign nation based on fake intel. Oops. Something about stones and glass houses comes to mind.


Lots of others may look at "US" and cite: Tuscegee Experiment, Oklahoma Greenwood "Black Wall Street" bombing in the 20's, and even January 6th and take their own personal moral stand as you did.


Or, just like the PGA Tour did to all Trump properties.


The rich-ass Saudis have "stupid-money" that they throw around will-nilly at football, golf and other sports. They tried and failed to make a soccer/football league, too.


Wait 20 years and watch these nations re-invent themselves when the modern world moves towards oil-independence and they become a punchline rather than a headline.

Steve_ Shaffer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #82 on: June 02, 2022, 12:02:53 PM »

RBC splits with Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell

Both players' endorsement agreements were terminated after deciding to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series




https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 12:27:28 PM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #83 on: June 02, 2022, 12:04:59 PM »

I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance".  The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.





So you'd like the PGA Tour to be the first?!? ok...


What would be the "right" comp package for Jay Monahan?  Better yet, what level executive would that role attract if the comp package were say, $1.2M, just to pick a number?


Bizarre to me that you're focused on executive comp inflated by something less than $20M considering all the numbers bouncing around this issue.


If you were a PGA Tour member, or other stakeholder, would you want to feel like you've got top line talent running the ship right now? Or would you want to wing it?




The Name/Image/Likeness issue will be interesting to see develop. Are the Saudi's putting up their billions to hand that over to the players?

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #84 on: June 02, 2022, 12:20:25 PM »
Jim, +100 to your last post.

I have no clue why there would even be the slightest expectation for the PGATour to have open arms or tolerate this in the slightest.

The LIV tour is a very real, and very well funded, threat. 

SMH....

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #85 on: June 02, 2022, 12:28:09 PM »
Another interesting question--maybe the biggest--is what this will mean to LIV players getting into the 4 Majors--none of which is controlled by the Tours.  Erik brought up the point--but there has been no comment on here.  Anyone have any insights?  I did see a somewhat-vague quote of exclusion from the PGA of America--and Erik posted an US Open comment.  Anything else?

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #86 on: June 02, 2022, 12:29:49 PM »

RBC splits with Dustin Johnson, Graeme McDowell

Both players' endorsement agreements were terminated after deciding to play in the LIV Golf Invitational Series




https://www.firstcallgolf.com/features/feature/2022-06-01/rbc-splits-with-dustin-johnson-graeme-mcdowell
This was particularly bad look for DJ as he was a team RBC member and will be in an event that conflicts with the RBC Canadian Open, which is being held for the first time in three years.  He is a past champ of this event and appeared in a lot of posters, ads, etc.  Apparently yesterday they were changing all of the posters at St. George's where the event is being held next week.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #87 on: June 02, 2022, 12:31:00 PM »
Another interesting question--maybe the biggest--is what this will mean to LIV players getting into the 4 Majors--none of which is controlled by the Tours.  Erik brought up the point--but there has been no comment on here.  Anyone have any insights?  I did see a somewhat-vague quote of exclusion from the PGA of America--and Erik posted an US Open comment.  Anything else?
We should find out in pretty short order as the US Open is less than two weeks away.

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #88 on: June 02, 2022, 12:32:51 PM »
To take Jim Hoak's last post a little further, how will the results in the LIV events be incorporated into the World Golf Rankings?

I have no idea who administers the WGR, but it will be interesting given that the WGR help determine who qualifies to play in the 4 majors.   
 

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #89 on: June 02, 2022, 12:45:25 PM »
I have no particular knowledge, but I'd be surprised if the field at the US Open in 2-3 weeks were affected.  I assume they will let the field that is already established stand.  But for next year?
The World Rankings question is a very good one.  Many off-Tour events--like Monday exhibitions--are not included in ranking points.  I assume a tour or an event has to apply to be included?  Who decides?



David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #90 on: June 02, 2022, 12:51:38 PM »
Jim H. -

If you scroll down to the bottom of this page, you will see all the "Eligible Tours" considered for WGR points.  The "Official World Golf Ranking Founders" are also listed.

http://www.owgr.com/ranking

We shall if/when LIV appears in either category. ;)

DT 

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #91 on: June 02, 2022, 01:53:55 PM »

I am unaware of any company or individual who welcomes competition with "open arms and full assistance".  The PGA Tour's reaction is the opposite of encouragement, a betrayal, IMO, of its own insecurity and perhaps a fear that the gravy train its bureaucracy lives on explendidly may be less bountiful.





So you'd like the PGA Tour to be the first?!? ok...


What would be the "right" comp package for Jay Monahan?  Better yet, what level executive would that role attract if the comp package were say, $1.2M, just to pick a number?


Bizarre to me that you're focused on executive comp inflated by something less than $20M considering all the numbers bouncing around this issue.


If you were a PGA Tour member, or other stakeholder, would you want to feel like you've got top line talent running the ship right now? Or would you want to wing it?




The Name/Image/Likeness issue will be interesting to see develop. Are the Saudi's putting up their billions to hand that over to the players?


On #1, all organizations (and organisms) have two primary, allied drives, survival and reproduction.  Meeting the competition, better yet, holding it at bay, is integral.  I would have liked the PGA Tour to be more receptive to what I consider the legitimate requests of one of its biggest stars over the last 20 or so years.  Having shown little interest in sharing the wealth, the work product of those who generate it, I think it would have been prudent for the Tour to take a more conciliatory approach, say by giving a few exemptions and evaluating what this portends to the future.  Unlike Jim, I have not consulted with an antitrust lawyer, but have read quite a bit to know that the landscape is changing away from the effects on consumers.  I do suspect that his contacts are right at least over the near term and the Tour would likely prevail.


On #2, 3, I have no beef with what Monahan makes- I'm assuming that the Tour governing group is qualified to evaluate those things and he is fairly paid.  I am saying that whatever it is, it puts him up there within the Top 50 money winners, you know, the men who generate the revenues and are paid based on their performance.  If the Tour had a meager balance sheet and the compensation for the executives and staff was market-based, then I could more easily understand its rebuffal of Phil's position.  Ditto for the burr up my ass regarding its pension system leaving out hard-working journeymen who did not set the world on fire, but were still an integral part of the Tour.


Not that it is relevant, I am curious about other sports- how many baseball and basketball players make more than the commissioners of their leagues?  How many team owners make less, especially when considering the increase of franchise values?  Are Asian baseball players prohibited from returning home after playing in the U.S.?  Those who come here certainly dilute the product of their domestic teams.  Perhaps the PGA Tour might have been able to negotiate a sizable signing fee with the Saudis and provided for an orderly return to those players who took advantage of the opportunity.  But I digress.


#4, if I was a Tour player I'd want a smart, energetic, person with the requisite skills and PR demeanor to run things with competent staff, all paid based on market levels of compensation and objective performance evaluations.  I would also want to have a system in place that recognizes my contributions to the Show and has sufficient safety nets in the event that my career is cut short by injury from the job. I would also not underestimate the value of sponsors, host clubs, and the thousands of volunteers who actually pay a fee ($50 is not atypical) to work for a week gratis.


#5, had the Tour acted fairly in this regard, maybe most of the rest would have been moot.  I suspect that the Saudis are more attuned to the issue of who owns the rights to their own image than perhaps we are.  I would also be very surprised if they short the players on the commitments that drew them to that tour.     

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #92 on: June 02, 2022, 02:53:12 PM »
Lou -


The PGA Tour has a 16-member Player Advisory Council. It is not as though the '"powers that be" in the administration of the Tour act with no input from the players. Perhaps some of the issues/concerns raised by Phil Mickelson have been considered by this group and it was his fellow players who did not support PM over these matters. Then again, perhaps not. :)

The members of the Council for 2022 are listed here:

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2022/01/17/player-advisory-council-announced-patrick-cantlay-brooks-koepka-billy-horschel-will-zalatoris-jon-rahm.html

It is curious to see Graeme McDowell listed as a member of the Council given his decision to join LIV. My guess is he will be replaced very soon.


DT   


p.s. Another other interesting card to be played several years down the road is what will happen to the 40-something players who have joined LIV once they turn 50. Will Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, etc. be welcome on the Champions Tour?   
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 02:55:29 PM by David_Tepper »

Jim O’Kane

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #93 on: June 02, 2022, 02:54:35 PM »


Discovery and depositions in a DJ vs PGA Tour lawsuit might have entertainment value.


I would agree and tend to think that value would be extremely "high"

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #94 on: June 02, 2022, 03:20:42 PM »

p.s. Another other interesting card to be played several years down the road is what will happen to the 40-something players who have joined LIV once they turn 50. Will Garcia, Poulter, Westwood, etc. be welcome on the Champions Tour?


Darren Clarke's declination to broadcast sheds a little light. I have no idea what resides in the heart of the Champions' fields, but I have long taken it that they like the conditions out there. And for any soon-to-be Langer, Jimenez, Couples, Els, Toms, Stricker, Goosen types that might want to be part of it with their reps, no one's sustainably paying Stephen Ames or Alker.  But who knows, maybe that's what LIV will turn into - a 13th grade between regular Tour and Senior... you're near the end of a fine career... cash out.
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #95 on: June 02, 2022, 05:11:36 PM »

V. Kmetz


Regarding Sergio, I hate to tell him that Slugger White is the head of Rules for the LIV. After who knows how many years on the PGA Tour, he is going to rule the same way as the tour.  They aren’t going to write their own rules.

I thought the tour’s decision on Clarke was questionable. How can a person who isn’t playing be bound by tour rules like that?

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #96 on: June 02, 2022, 05:49:06 PM »
The Slugger announcement was in November. Instead of all this infighting why not acknowledge this is great for the golf architecture fan? I’m exhausted by late afternoon 72 hole broadcasts.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #97 on: June 02, 2022, 06:04:16 PM »
In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely.  No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...

V. Kmetz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #98 on: June 02, 2022, 06:14:19 PM »

V. Kmetz

Regarding Sergio, I hate to tell him that Slugger White is the head of Rules for the LIV. After who knows how many years on the PGA Tour, he is going to rule the same way as the tour.  They aren’t going to write their own rules.

I thought the tour’s decision on Clarke was questionable. How can a person who isn’t playing be bound by tour rules like that?

Yeah, makes that "I can't wait to leave this Tour" comment in the middle of an adverse ruling, kind of hollow...

I don't know if the Champions player participation rules are the same as the Tour, but the spirit reverbs the same way...pick one man, you make your bed...lie in it...     Hey, another symmetry with orange julius
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT: LIV field
« Reply #99 on: June 02, 2022, 06:43:17 PM »
In the absence of attracting a critical mass of premium players, other than DJ of course, I can't see the LIV tour keep forking out massive gobs of money and taking big losses indefinitely.  No way they getting any kind of return on thier investment even in the shorter long-term as it is now...


Have you seen the price of oil? The Saudis are killing it. The return on investment is something they couldn’t buy until they signed Phil and the narrative was changed. What a perfect storm they have found themselves in. A bunch of rich guys are losing hold of their power. Not the biggest challenge facing us today.