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Ran Morrissett

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The updated profile on Southern Pines GC is now posted. Here is the link:

Southern Pines Golf Club – Golf Club Atlas

SPGC has served as my home course for the past 22 years. I am a total homer and have always adored it. Before Kyle Franz’s 2020/2021 work, it enjoyed great bones but its architectural features were lacking. That’s okay, back then at a $65 green fee, it was one of the best bargains in the Southeast. I was introduced to the course in 1997 by a friend (Ted Sturges) and it was a big reason why I elected to move to Southern Pines three years later from Australia. Ever since, I have invested the vast majority of my local playing time here.

Trying to be objective about your home course is well-nigh impossible. I am not even going to pretend to be anything other than biased. Friends now own it and friends restored it and heck, it is even where I proposed to my now wife one snowy January day. I take pride in showing it off, made even better when you see a first-timer quickly become bewitched under its spell.  For instance, Travis Takto, a GCAer in Chapel Hill, drove down three weeks ago and must have said OMG ~ten times over the 12 holes we played. It was a postcard perfect late afternoon and the long shadows made the course appear especially handsome. Travis gushed and I naturally thought, “Well, here is a good man with a keen eye! ” I even let him buy me a beer afterwards. 😊

The course re-opened last September to rave reviews. As Kyle notes at the end of the profile, “People have appreciated that we didn't just do tic tac toe and copycat, paint by numbers stuff. We strived to be innovative, adding some fun features while always being respectful of Mr. Ross." There is so much to admire, cool things like the now drivable Cape 11th hole and the grass mound in front of the 13th green.

Happily, some people have groused that the greens are ‘too wild.’ Generally, my experience is that’s a good thing. Having played Pinehurst No. 2, Oakland Hills and Brookside (Canton) at the same time these were being built, I am not sure what people expect on a Donald Ross course.
 
Kyle Franz’s inspiration for SPGC’s greens were black and white photos from Pinehurst No. 2 when Ross grassed them. I find nothing discordant between Kyle’s work and such pictures. In fact, just the opposite: the greens to me are the highlight of the project. True, when the greens were being constructed, a few of them like 2, 4 and 6 looked severe but … I was wrong. I say that have played them ~50 times since and have gained a better appreciation of how to tackle them. Is that part of being a homer, that you get to wrestle with the questions posed again and again and ultimately decide on the merits of something through numerous rounds? Studying and playing these greens has been a most enjoyable learning curve, one that is still on going.

To be fair, before coming for a game, please know that today’s presentation of SPGC is short of the standards set at its sister resort courses, Mid Pines and Pine Needles (which hosts a rather big event this week!). The sand in the bunkers has been slow to compact and you can draw poor lies, even fried eggs. The Elks organization owned it for decades and it is going to take time for Green Keeper Cody Self to work his magic and have it present like Pine Needles will this week. So be it.
 
Though obviously impossible, I do wish that the old course and the old green fee of $65 could co-exist side by side with the restored one with its higher green fee as affordable golf is what this country sorely needs. Still, even with today’s green fee during peak season at $195, I can argue that it represents as good a value now as it did five years ago, that’s how stellar an opinion I have of the work that Franz and team accomplished. Also, understand that this is not a completed project. Things remains on the drawing board, including tee work and of course, the perpetual refinement on the course’s presentation.
 
On a personal note, it was a blast to live one mile from this project. My wife and I walked our dogs each morning there and could witness what was unfolding. We are morning people and seeing the energy on display pre-7am was inspiring. Late afternoon, I would return with clubs and the same people were still chugging away, much dirtier but still happy to talk about the day’s accomplishments. Much to Kyle’s credit, he assembled a talented, passionate team. It seemed like everyone was always having fun, and that - somehow -  is displayed in the final offering. If you are an architecture dork, there is no greater gift than to spend time at a course while work is unfolding. I chronicled some of what I saw on Instagram, fyi.

Anyway, the greater Pinehurst/Southern Pines has always been a microcosm for the good and bad things happening in American golf. If you look at all the great work that has occurred in this region this century (both new construction and restoration work), you will feel heartened by the direction of golf in this country. And if you meet the people driving the work, you will be even more chuffed! In fact, a friend who is a member wants to start the Shrink the Game movement as our quiet afternoon rounds are in peril from the onslaught of golfers flocking here. It is a great problem to have. 
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 02:31:00 PM by Ran Morrissett »

Tim Martin

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Ran-Terrific review!!! I liked SP before the work and was lucky enough to see what Kyle and his crew did in February and the transformation is really something to behold. He was hired along with Tyler Rae by Wampanoag CC in my home town of West Hartford, Connecticut which is a 1926 Ross design. I’m a fan of the golf course and am looking forward to the completed project. Having Southern Pines as your home course has to be a treat.

Will Thrasher

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Thanks, Ran. I'm playing Southern Pines in just a few weeks. I was excited before, but reading this made me downright giddy.
Twitter: @will_thrasher_

Carl Rogers

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I played SP a month ago on a Monday, very very slow round.
I liked the course before, but of course needed some re-work.
The question is how much re-work?  Can the re-work be over done?


In this case, IMO it is over done.


Is GCA in another arm's race of wild, wilder and more wild greens? ...all started by Sweeten's Cove?
I decline to accept the end of man. ... William Faulkner

Mike Sweeney

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I played SP a month ago on a Monday, very very slow round.
I liked the course before, but of course needed some re-work.
The question is how much re-work?  Can the re-work be over done?


In this case, IMO it is over done.


Is GCA in another arm's race of wild, wilder and more wild greens? ...all started by Sweeten's Cove?


Carl,


Fabulous post!


You took on the "Big Kahuna", and I love it:





BUT this kind of started on GCA with https://www.aquidneckclub.com. Really great greens that took 5 hours to play..


Now I am a fan of the old Southern Pines, having played it once on Ran's recommendation. I have not seen the NEW Southern Pines, but I played Mid Pines in November "20 and really loved it, so...


Thanks for your post.
"One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us."

Dr. Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark

Tommy Williamsen

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I played SP a few weeks after it reopened last fall. Things were still growing in but I could tell that it had become a special place. The bunkering is just terrific and the greens full of movement. I had not played them course pre-renovation so I can’t comment on the differences. I went away thinking it was a very good course but in appearance it looks like the other Ross courses in the area. I understand the owners wanting to have a more original look but is it necessary for all the Ross courses to look similar?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Mike Feeney

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #6 on: June 01, 2022, 07:09:14 AM »
Nice work, Ran.
Fifteenth hole, 430 yards; In the 1990s, an architect created a new tee ~ 100 yards from the fourteenth green and turned this hole into a straightaway 500 yard three shotter. The add length ‘window-dressed’ the scorecard by making the course longer than 6,200. To the author, this hole is more interesting from Ross’s original tee, which is found twenty paces behind the prior green. From there, it plays as a tough 430 yarder as it doglegs to the right and climbs to an elevated green. Requiring the golfer to hit a long approach fits well and adds to the variety of the two shotters on this side. It also perfectly complements the next hole, which is a drive and pitch.15th hole commentary caught my eye -- par 4?  Not for me.  Looked at scorecard on USGA app -- listed as a 495 yard par 5.  I like the pressure it put on the drive and the 2nd shot decision required whether to carry the cross bunker.

Magical place.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2022, 07:27:29 AM by Mike Feeney »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2022, 12:03:42 PM »
I'm looking to play all three (again) in July (have my rounds booked at MP and PN, which will aerate just a week before), but Southern Pines is not yet on their booking system and only takes times 30 days out, so I've got to wait a bit to book that round.

I've played MP and PN twice each before the renovation, and once or twice each since their renovation(s). I've played SP now three times: once before the renovation, once during the renovation, and once just after the renovation (last Thanksgiving weekend).

I don't honestly know which course I love more, but I love all three. I was most surprised by Southern Pines, though. Great piece of land, great use of the land, good variety, good challenge. It plays longer than the yardage, and presents a heck of challenge that's in some ways more under-stated than the challenge found at MP or PN, but every bit as real.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

John Mayhugh

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2022, 01:25:06 PM »
Ran, 
This is a terrific profile. Your affection for the course shows, but rightfully so. I have only played there twice - one time before and one time post renovation, but I found myself nodding along constantly with what you wrote.  Some key points for me:
 
Every hole goes up or down at least twenty feet and yet the golfer never complains of hilliness.
It's really not something you think about while playing fatigue-wise. The elevation changes make for some great variety.
 
From the get-go, more sandscape and short grass emerged.  and  This cross hazard is a mix of bunkers and hardpan. Much it will go untended, so bad lies are part of the equation.
This is such a huge transformation. I'm all for more bad lies that are also playable like this approach - much better than deep rough where you have to constantly search for errant shots.
 
Referring to the 13th: One that grabbed his attention showed a mound in front of the eighth green at Pinehurst No. 2. Franz hasn’t seen too many such ones like it on Ross courses and this one stuck in his mind. As he says, ‘The appeal of such a feature is that it introduces uncertainty as so many different outcomes can occur depending on how the ball interacts with the mound.”
There's a knob something like this in front of the 7th green at Holston Hills. Not as large, but complicates longer approaches. Great feature.
 
One litmus test for judging the merit of a set of greens is how many ‘fun’ hole locations do they render. The greens at Southern Pines pass that test with distinction.
When I played, I thought that a few of the greens seemed too modern. It's been interesting reading your profile and Franz's comments about the "aggressive" version of Ross. The greens all work really well, and having heard more about the inspiration, maybe I just need to see more Ross.
 
Through it all, Southern Pines has retained that simple, yet elusive, attribute of being darn fun to play on a regular basis. Maybe there is a more important design attribute than that, but I am not sure what it would be?!

I'll take FUN over everything else. I'm certainly looking forward to my next visit (mid-July, hopefully).


 

Ira Fishman

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2022, 03:04:28 PM »
The profile is terrific as are the photos. Based on our round last November a few weeks after the course re-opened, SP left/leaves me a bit confused. The greens are terrific; I did not find them over the top although I do like heavily contoured greens. They actually reminded me more of Ballyneal than PH2. There are some terrific holes (2, 4, 7, 8, 13, and 17). On the other hand, except for 7, the Par 3s struck me as similar and somewhat resort course generic. 10, 15 (the point about the old tee is enlightening), 16 and to some extent 18 all offer the same approach shot. For some reason then, the routing did not flow as a coherent narrative. The placement of the bunkers is truly strategic, but their number and size dominated thereby distracting some from appreciating the movement of the land and the greens.


All that said, we liked the course a great deal. I look forward to returning. And also to revising and extending my remarks as I get to experience SP more frequently.


Ira


PS The porch overlooking the 18th green registered a spot on my list of great places for a post-round drink, particularly if, as were, joined by SP regulars.

Doug Lionberger

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2022, 08:50:31 PM »
Playing it tomorrow evening for the first time - looking forward to seeing the course.

Peter Sayegh

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2022, 09:30:45 AM »
Ran, thanks for the updated tour. Your love for SPGC pre/post renovation is obvious. Because of your original tour, it was the first course I sought out on my initial visit to the area. After one round, it became my favorite golf course.

After twenty plus rounds in the last five years (two mid-reno, two post-reno), Mid Pines is now my number one.

To me, #6 was a much better hole-though it may have been "un Ross-like." The "abrutness" was a feature I really liked, especially for those not hitting the green. (Ran, I thought you admired that aspect in your original review-that the green "rose" from the land. It's the only reason I took many pictures showing that angle. Apologies if I remember incorrectly).
#9 is much worse.


#11 overall, a massive improvement...but the encroachment of the waste/sandy area on the left side short of the green complex is a mistake. The slope is that significant that a putter from 100 yards was an option. No longer, with the crap there.
#12-without question, the worst hole on the course, pre/post reno. Mr. Franz put lipstick on a pig---and made it harder.
#15 will be judged by others. Not sure how the second shot will be received. The waste area will surely add time.

Just returned from the Sandhills. First time in five years I didn't play SPGC. Still breaks my heart.

Scott Warren

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2022, 09:21:50 PM »
I played Southern Pines in early April and have tried to reconcile my takeaways of the course with the fact that it had only opened the previous autumn, so was obviously still settling in -- especially regarding the green firmness, which was extreme and perhaps made the likes of the 2nd and 4th play more severe than they ultimately will.

Both greens were a jarring slap early in the round and I fear they framed my perception of the rest of the walk, because my reaction at the time was quite tempered, but has warmed with recollections since of the many great features and holes I enjoyed (and even in the time it has taken me to write, tweak and edit this post!).

Why did I take exception particularly to the 2nd and 4th greens but not the likes of the 1st, 3rd, 6th and 13th, among others?

I think Kyle Franz's comment that Ran quotes in the course profile is relevant:


Quote
These green contours are my interpretation of what Ross was building at Pinehurst No. 2 during the 1930s

It's notable to me that Pinehurst #2 is an exceptionally flat golf course, particularly on approach to the greens and I think features like the segmentation at the 2nd, the shoulder of the front-left bunker that dominates the front of the 4th green and the ridge feeding into the LHS of the 16th green are entirely reasonable, fun, interesting features when you can see what you're encountering.

IMO that's why I think I didn't mind the drama in the greens that you approach from level or hitting downhill, but baulked at some of those approached with your head below the level of the green. The 10th and 18th greens were, I thought, more appropriate greens for shots of that type.

I also wonder if Ross would have ever countenanced greens like 2, 4, 6, 13, 16 on a site like Southern Pines, and I'm not convinced the historical Ross link to PH2 is a sound argument against questions of the appropriateness of some of the new greens.

I also reckon eight is a lot of approach shots to have to hit to a green set higher than your head in one round (I'm counting 2, 4, 7, 10, 12, 15, 16, 18). As with the green contours, that's something a lot of people criticise about my old home club here in Sydney, Bonnie Doon (the two courses are frighteningly alike, keen to hear what anyone else who has played both might think about the comparison).

But by the same token, 1, 3, 6, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 17 is a hell of lot of very good holes on one course, so I can understand how Southern Pines might be a polarising course in a region where there a lot of courses that are just very nice but maybe not particularly stirring or memorable.

As Tobacco Road has proven, there's good business in a course where driving out the front gate two people in the car can't wait to return and the other two swear "never again".
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 09:23:42 PM by Scott Warren »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #13 on: June 02, 2022, 10:01:36 PM »
As they say, Scott, a course (or a shot, or a green) is only blind once.  :)
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Doug Lionberger

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #14 on: June 02, 2022, 10:21:14 PM »
I played it today and loved it.  I was a bit unprepared for the amount of elevation change as I’ve never golfed in this region before.  My only complaint is something that Ran mentioned - the bunkers need settling in.  They were the softest bunkers I had ever played.  I also really liked the green complexes.  They were interesting but combined with the speed of the greens I never found them too severe.



Definitely looking forward to getting back and seeing it again.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2022, 10:57:03 PM by Doug Lionberger »

Scott Warren

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2022, 11:25:42 PM »
As they say, Scott, a course (or a shot, or a green) is only blind once.  :)

They do say that. They're wrong, of course.

My home course has about seven blind shots. You become more comfortable with them with repeat play, but the blindness still plays a role.

Also, in this case it's just as much about the way a shot to a raised green approaches the surface vs a shot hit either level or downhill. In addition to any impacts on visibility, a shot hit into a raised green is going to land at a shallower angle than one hit from flat or above the green and engage more with whatever contouring is built into the green.

I suspect that's one of the unspoken reasons a lot of people object to too many uphill approach shots on a course.

Sean_A

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2022, 01:51:13 AM »
As they say, Scott, a course (or a shot, or a green) is only blind once.  :)

They do say that. They're wrong, of course.

My home course has about seven blind shots. You become more comfortable with them with repeat play, but the blindness still plays a role.

Also, in this case it's just as much about the way a shot to a raised green approaches the surface vs a shot hit either level or downhill. In addition to any impacts on visibility, a shot hit into a raised green is going to land at a shallower angle than one hit from flat or above the green and engage more with whatever contouring is built into the green.

I suspect that's one of the unspoken reasons a lot of people object to too many uphill approach shots on a course.

On just about every Ross course I have played with decent land movement the hilltop/plateaux/ raised green is a a significant element of the design.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Scott Warren

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2022, 02:13:16 AM »
It’s a feature (whether by necessity, choice or a combination of the two) on most courses I know with that kind of land.


As I said in my post, my contention is not with that type of greensite, but with some of the dramatic contouring that’s coupled with them.

Tim Martin

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2022, 07:10:49 AM »
As they say, Scott, a course (or a shot, or a green) is only blind once.  :)

They do say that. They're wrong, of course.

My home course has about seven blind shots. You become more comfortable with them with repeat play, but the blindness still plays a role.

Also, in this case it's just as much about the way a shot to a raised green approaches the surface vs a shot hit either level or downhill. In addition to any impacts on visibility, a shot hit into a raised green is going to land at a shallower angle than one hit from flat or above the green and engage more with whatever contouring is built into the green.

I suspect that's one of the unspoken reasons a lot of people object to too many uphill approach shots on a course.

On just about every Ross course I have played with decent land movement the hilltop/plateaux/ raised green is a a significant element of the design.

Ciao


Spot on observation. He throws three at you on 5,7,9 at Wannamoisett on the outgoing holes as an example. I can’t think of two tougher short fours than 5 and 7 where in addition to the false fronts you get wildly contoured greens making hitting them in the correct spot and a two putt a real challenge.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2022, 08:13:39 AM by Tim Martin »

Erik J. Barzeski

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2022, 08:09:10 AM »
Also, in this case it's just as much about the way a shot to a raised green approaches the surface vs a shot hit either level or downhill. In addition to any impacts on visibility, a shot hit into a raised green is going to land at a shallower angle than one hit from flat or above the green and engage more with whatever contouring is built into the green.
So you'd prefer flatter greens on uphill approaches?

I'll pass. I think the contouring on two and four are fine. You're hitting short clubs into both of those greens, and the same is true on 13 and 16. Six I don't really count as an "uphill" or "blind" approach shot as you can see much of the surface, and it's long enough you can bounce the ball up that front slope/false front.

The first time I played four it was a little thrilling to see where my ball ended up and what kind of putt I would have. I remember the green in future playings, so I try to keep my ball in certain areas. Plus, again, you're coming into it with a 9I or wedge or something.

I don't think uphill or blind approaches should have less severe greens. Many redans are basically blind greens, and they are severely sloped, for example. Once you know how to play a hole, there's value in having that knowledge on a redan. Same could be said of SP.
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Peter Sayegh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2022, 08:58:59 AM »
I'm a little surprised the greens are an issue. Pre/post renovation, I think they are fair.
Doug's comment about the bunkers is dead on. A little more time and I'm sure they'll be fine.

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 3
Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2022, 10:36:18 AM »
Hope Valley has 11 elevated greens most of which have false fronts (some have become more severe because of green build up), but they do not seem as repetitive as 10, 15, and 16 at SP because they vary in length, steepness, green angle, and ability to see part of green. MP has quite a few, but same same story.


As far as contours, I like bold ones in part because I hit the green so infrequently in regulation that they make the pitches, chips, Texas Wedges with a hybrid, and putting more fun.

Niall C

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2022, 01:08:45 PM »

As far as contours, I like bold ones in part because I hit the green so infrequently in regulation that they make the pitches, chips, Texas Wedges with a hybrid, and putting more fun.


Ira


That resonates with me as I'm not noted for hitting a lot of greens in regulation. The only thing I'd say is that I think you can provide interesting green contours and green complexes without making it a complete lottery for someone (regular golfer and not a Tour pro) trying to hit the green from distance.


Niall

Steve Lang

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Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2022, 11:50:55 AM »
 8)  Played The Elks between 1980 and 2005 probably 40 times, always started the spring Golf Carolina week there on Sunday with at least 36 and often took in the back 9 down the hill from the pool... waiting for a replay... So I always have to ask what is its future beyond supplying grasses?  Seems a shame to let it pass away...


It always seemed like it may have been a Ross testing ground for construction or some routing concepts.   

Will be interested to return to see SP, maybe just to walk it one more time...



Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

Peter Sayegh

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Updated Southern Pines GC profile posted under Courses by Country
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2022, 01:04:16 PM »
So I always have to ask what is its future beyond supplying grasses?  Seems a shame to let it pass away...

It always seemed like it may have been a Ross testing ground for construction or some routing concepts.   

Steve, could you expand on these thoughts?

"A Ross testing ground" is a bold statement (I love bold statements).

Paging Mr. Buie.