GCA Mythbusters 7: The need for speed

[Ally Mcintosh]

“Ever increasing green speeds are due to nothing more than showboating by courses trying to prove “who’s best!” ”.


Truth or Myth?

[Sean_A]

“Ever increasing green speeds are due to nothing more than showboating by courses trying to prove “who’s best!” ”.


Truth or Myth?

Clubs and golfers have been bragging about green speeds since at least the early 80s.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

And is that as deep as it goes?

[Sean_A]

And is that as deep as it goes?

Like much that has happened in golf architecture, agronomy, maintenance and equipment, it happens because it can be done.

Ciao

[Ally Mcintosh]

And are there any advantages? Or other reasons?

[Sean_A]

And are there any advantages? Or other reasons?

I am told some of these new strains of grass perform better and are easier to maintain during unusual weather periods. Perhaps higher speeds is a bi product of these strains?

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

And is that as deep as it goes?

Ally,

The only non-ego based reason coming to mind is:

Based on personal experience, slower greens tend to be more bumpy, and faster greens less so.  There are probably a few exceptions of course, but it could be many courses have sped up greens in large part to make them putt more true.

[Cliff Hamm]

https://golf.com/news/impossible-pin-location-chaos-hs-state-championship/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=7ad0929ad57b56a922476166449a3d2f5fea9298d7a1f57148fe6b5b6b2b6f5d&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter


it is often stated that everyone plays the same course so it is fair. This might prove the exception.

[Kalen Braley]

https://golf.com/news/impossible-pin-location-chaos-hs-state-championship/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=7ad0929ad57b56a922476166449a3d2f5fea9298d7a1f57148fe6b5b6b2b6f5d&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter


it is often stated that everyone plays the same course so it is fair. This might prove the exception.

Cliff,


I saw that.  Looks like the super was either having a really bad day or was inspired by some old US Open footage at Olympic!

[Thomas Dai]

“Ever increasing green speeds are due to nothing more than showboating by courses trying to prove “who’s best!” ”.
Truth or Myth?

There’s certainly an element to this but also worth considering is the inventiveness of mankind and competition (“showboating”?) between equipment manufacturers, agronomy related companies etc etc all wanting their product or technique to be top dog (and make them some money!).
Where once putting surfaces where nibbled by sheep and later cut by men with scythes.
Atb

[Greg Smith]

You know, that bit about putting true and getting rid of bumps could kind of make sense as a reason.


The first time I ever played a REALLY high profile course the greens were blazing.  When I hit the first putt on the practice green I was completely shocked, not so much by the speed as by the fact it went exactly where I aimed it -- each and every time!  After hitting a few different lengths of putts, I realized all I had to do is read it correctly and pretend the distance was 1/2 of actual.  Once I got the speed I was draining lots of practice putts.


On the course I felt all I had to do was NEVER leave the ball above the hole and I'd be all right.  Even on a set of greens famous for four-putting, that day ended up as one of my best putting rounds ever.  Pity the rest of my clubs weren't up to the test!


So on that account maybe I get it.  Clubs that have the $$$$$ to maintain those speeds may be doing it because the members (also with $$$$$) enjoy the smoothness.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

https://golf.com/news/impossible-pin-location-chaos-hs-state-championship/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=7ad0929ad57b56a922476166449a3d2f5fea9298d7a1f57148fe6b5b6b2b6f5d&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter


..... it is interesting to note in the commentary and related tweets, all the blame for the multiple putts are given to the hole location and not to the "speed" of the green!?!?


How much of the green surface of the greens in the world are unpinnable at Stimpmeter readings of 11 and above ?
Probably a signiicant amount, giving the greenkeeper not many choices for his pin positions.

[Anthony_Nysse]

https://golf.com/news/impossible-pin-location-chaos-hs-state-championship/?utm_campaign=forecast&utm_source=golf.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=%7Bdate%28&user_email=7ad0929ad57b56a922476166449a3d2f5fea9298d7a1f57148fe6b5b6b2b6f5d&utm_term=GOLFcom%20Top%20Stories%20Newsletter


it is often stated that everyone plays the same course so it is fair. This might prove the exception.

Cliff,


I saw that.  Looks like the super was either having a really bad day or was inspired by some old US Open footage at Olympic!

Love how the Superintendent is automatically blamed for the pin. Nearly 100% of the time, where there is a state, reginal or national sanctioned event, they have a committee that comes & sets all the locations. Superintendents & their staff are just told to place the cup at a certain painted dot that was made the night before or morning of. Too many people think Superintendents have a malicious side when in reality, nearly everyone of us understand the importance of putting out a positive product & giving golfers the most bang for their buck.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

Truth or Myth?

Myth. Other reasons exist.

These questions would be more interesting if they weren't posed as "always/never" type.

[Niall C]

Erik


The question is there to provoke discussion. You can answer it how you wish. If you don't wish to give an expansive answer then that is your prerogative.


Ally


I suppose the perceived wisdom is that there is a bit of an arms race in terms of green speeds, and that they have got so fast that greens are being flattened to handle the pace. That may well be true at high end US courses but not sure it is true at your average UK course. No doubt that due to improved maintenance and agronomy greens are getting "better" but I'm not sure I've heard of a UK course flattening greens due to increased green speeds. Certainly I've heard of greens being redesigned to provide more hole locations but I put that down to a need for more hole locations due to increase in traffic rather than the number of hole locations being reduced because of the increased pace of the greens. The only green I can think of was when they tweaked the 11th at TOC.


As to whether faster greens are due to clubs just showboating or a genuine attempt to improve the course I suspect in a UK context it is the latter and I also suspect that in making the greens quicker they are doing precisely that. To give an example, I played Silloth on Friday with a couple of other GCA'ers and the whole course, not just the greens, was in the best condition I can remember seeing it and bear in mind I was a member there for 5 years. The greens weren't stupid quick but were running quick enough that there was plenty of borrow. I'd always considered the greens to being a bit flat but Friday proved otherwise, thanks to the green speeds.


Niall
 

[Tim Martin]

One of my favorite quotes on this site comes from Tom Doak and is referenced in Jeff Warne’s tag line. “Let’s slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them.” As I play different courses it's an issue that I continue to encounter. The greens committee guys are almost always responsible and not the superintendents.

[Ira Fishman]

Too many players equate speed with difficulty. That then gives a win-win. If they putt well, they feel great about overcoming the challenge. If they putt poorly, they have a built in excuse.


Ira

[Erik J. Barzeski]

The question is there to provoke discussion. You can answer it how you wish. If you don't wish to give an expansive answer then that is your prerogative.

My answer is that Ally would likely get more expansive discussions if they weren't "always/never" type questions.

It's in spite of the way he's asked some questions that some decent conversations have erupted.

[Ally Mcintosh]

The question is there to provoke discussion. You can answer it how you wish. If you don't wish to give an expansive answer then that is your prerogative.

My answer is that Ally would likely get more expansive discussions if they weren't "always/never" type questions.

It's in spite of the way he's asked some questions that some decent conversations have erupted.

Erik,


I can’t lay down a hypotheses that says “sometimes width is better and sometimes it is not: Truth or Myth?”


The point of these threads is to take statements that are trotted out - seemingly without question - by a certain sect of bloggers, raters and so-called expert golf course reviewers; and investigate whether there is more depth to discuss. There are no black and whites.


Many of these “experts” have formed their own in-depth opinion. I just happen to think that some are saying what they’ve read elsewhere without going to the next level of thought.

[Thomas Dai]

Do most players putt well enough that green speed makes much of a difference?
Seems like fast or slow or somewhere in between there are still a bunch of poor putting strokes out there and then there’s the ability or inability to read surface contours decently.

Atb

[Niall C]

David


Do most players hit the ball well enough to make it worth their while playing a top course ? Why not just stay down the driving range ? Once you've answered those questions with the contempt they deserve use some of the same logic to your own question 


Niall

[Mike Sweeney]

“Ever increasing green speeds are due to nothing more than showboating by courses trying to prove “who’s best!” ”.


Truth or Myth?

Ally,

Sorry for removing this post. Thanks

[Tim Martin]

Yale’s restoration will be completed in no more than 24 months when it closes later this year.

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I can’t lay down a hypotheses that says “sometimes width is better and sometimes it is not: Truth or Myth?”

"Usually"? "Often"? "Typically"? "Primarily"? Etc.

The point of these threads is to take statements that are trotted out - seemingly without question - by a certain sect of bloggers, raters and so-called expert golf course reviewers; and investigate whether there is more depth to discuss. There are no black and whites.

Always/never are black-and-white.

Do most players putt well enough that green speed makes much of a difference?

Given time to adjust (like 20 minutes to putt a bit), players of a wide range of ability levels (basically, if you can break 100 or better) tend to putt better on faster greens. They're typically smoother, truer, and require a smaller stroke. It's easier to make the shorter putts (inside 10' or so), albeit they'll three-putt a bit more often from longer distances. (But players have fewer of those longer-distance putts than they do from 15' and in).

[jeffwarne]

And is that as deep as it goes?

Ally,

The only non-ego based reason coming to mind is:

Based on personal experience, slower greens tend to be more bumpy, and faster greens less so.  There are probably a few exceptions of course, but it could be many courses have sped up greens in large part to make them putt more true.

As to the original question?
Truth


As to Kalen's post above?
Mostly myth.Faster greens are only "truer" when they are pure, and a nightmare when they aren't.
If greens are healing or in poor condition, I'd much prefer they be on the slower side.
Both can be bumpy, but on a slower green the ball can be struck firmly to power thru a bump/imperfection with minimal comeback consequences.
On a fast green, every single imperfection is more relevant because the ball is travelling more slowly, and "powering thru" an imperfection such as aerification, spikemarks etc. can result in going many feet by.
Of course everything is relative, but greens have really gotten faster across the board the last 5 years or so.
Aerified greens that are healing are now often lightning fast whereas back in the day they weren't rolled as tight or even mowed to promote healing.
Fast and bumpy is zero fun and it's common now in competition in the spring.


Watching NCAA Tourney now.
You'd think these kids were terrible putters inside 5 feet.
They're not.


There's evidently little tolerance for slow greens-ever, and consequently even when healing or in poor condition it's demanded they be fast-which further slows the recovery.
People don't like slow greens because they demand solid contact-fast green absolutely do not.