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Jason Connor

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Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« on: April 26, 2022, 09:55:39 AM »
This was interesting -- never seen a case this big for balls coming onto a property.


https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/massachusetts-family-wins-5-million-verdict-country-club-property-hit-rcna25857


And I admit from finding the house and looking at the satellite view, I wouldnt have predicted the house was in harms way -- even on the inside of a dog leg left.


We used to own a home on Harbor Trees (early Dye) in Noblesville Indiana.  Our house was in a great spot -- just past the turn on the right side of a dogleg left. So we never got balls


But one house we looked at, I told my wife "The dog would have to wear a helmet in the yard if we bought this house."   


I can see having a case here, because even as a golf, I'm not sure I would have predicted it would be this bad.


Thoughts?


 

We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

SB

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #1 on: April 26, 2022, 10:17:57 AM »
Not only is it on the inside of a dogleg, it looks like it's on the inside of a drivable par 4.  Every idiot who steps up to the the tee probably deliberately tries to hit it over the house.  Sounds like they fixed the tee, anyone know how? 


Regardless, $5M seems excessive considering he admits he should have known better.

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #2 on: April 26, 2022, 10:30:40 AM »
Seems like pretty obvious assumption of the risk in this case. On the other hand, it's too bad the course waiting until getting sued before they actually took steps to change the tee box, which sounds like solved the problem.

Sean_A

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #3 on: April 26, 2022, 10:34:17 AM »
My opinion? Golfers have a duty of care to keep people on and off the course safe from errant shots. It doesn't matter if the house(s) or course existed first. The days of golfers treating adjacent properties as an extension of the golf course are coming to an end...and rightful so.

Get insurance and make smarter choices.

Ciao
« Last Edit: April 26, 2022, 10:36:04 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Jim Sherma

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2022, 10:59:27 AM »
I love golf - but never understood the thrill of living next to a golf course. Especially on either side of a driving zone. I've seen a lot worse set ups than this and can only imaging that more and more of these cases will be getting filed and won once the legal profession realizes there's gold inside of those doglegs.

Kevin_Reilly

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #5 on: April 26, 2022, 12:39:22 PM »
Sounds like they fixed the tee, anyone know how? 


From an NBC News article: 

The couple's home is at the bend of a severe leftward curve in the course. So golfers seeking to "cut the dogleg" would regularly blast off the tee in hopes of clearing a tree line — but end up hitting the home instead, the Tenczars claimed.

But now the couple and their three young daughters hope the problem could be solved as the tee box on 15 has been moved back, disincentivizing golfers from their attempted shortcut and instead encouraging more simple shots that follow the dogleg, Galvin said.
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Mark Kiely

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #6 on: April 26, 2022, 12:55:30 PM »
Piggy-backing on this topic, it's my understanding that a litigious homeowner is the reason San Clemente Municipal has temporarily closed the back (blue) tee on No. 16. It's a shame because that back tee turns a rather straightforward hole into more of a cape hole with all the strategic questions they pose.


Last time I played there (end of Feb), I was told they were working to plant a tree as a solution, but also that the house in question had been sold.
My golf course photo albums on Flickr: https://goo.gl/dWPF9z

Kalen Braley

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2022, 01:17:41 PM »
I love golf - but never understood the thrill of living next to a golf course. Especially on either side of a driving zone. I've seen a lot worse set ups than this and can only imaging that more and more of these cases will be getting filed and won once the legal profession realizes there's gold inside of those doglegs.


Same here.


And many golf courses won't allow you to put up a 6 foot fence either for backyard privacy.  So outside of perhaps a home on Cypress or Pebble no thanks!  ;D

Jason Connor

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2022, 02:48:22 PM »
Not only is it on the inside of a dogleg, it looks like it's on the inside of a drivable par 4.  Every idiot who steps up to the the tee probably deliberately tries to hit it over the house.  Sounds like they fixed the tee, anyone know how? 


Regardless, $5M seems excessive considering he admits he should have known better.




It says they moved the tee back.  So presumably making it much harder to hit the green.


Though the scorecard on the website shows its 350, and given the trees, it doesnt seem like *that* drivable a hole.



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jason Connor

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2022, 02:55:09 PM »
I love golf - but never understood the thrill of living next to a golf course. Especially on either side of a driving zone. I've seen a lot worse set ups than this and can only imaging that more and more of these cases will be getting filed and won once the legal profession realizes there's gold inside of those doglegs.


I loved it during my time. Views are better and just get open space. But I had an ideal lot, about 300 yards down on the right side of a dog leg left Par 4. So you couldnt reach it from the tee, then the players were hitting away from me for their 2nd shot.


My deck actually had nice view from behind the players approach shot toward the green.


That said I was house hunting once, I was on a porch about 40 yards in front of the mens tee, and a guy rips one off the screened in porch, ball went into the flower beds in the next house down.


Then -- we were still on the porch and the golfer comes down hacking -- and I do mean hacking -- at the flowers.  And I'm like "Hey - your ball is the next house down, but maybe look for it a little nicer."  He didnt even apologize.



We discovered that in good company there is no such thing as a bad golf course.  - James Dodson

Jerry Kluger

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2022, 03:20:17 PM »
I can remember being told at Winged Foot to not to try and retrieve a ball from a particular homeowner's yard no matter what.  I also believe a hole at Quaker Ridge had to be redesigned because of a lawsuit brought by a homeowner.

JLahrman

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2022, 04:49:53 PM »
Regardless, $5M seems excessive considering he admits he should have known better.


If you're a non-golfer (I did read the article, forget if it said the homeowners were golfers or not but I don't think they were), I'm not sure you're going to have much idea of just how far offline tee shots can go.


People should come watch me hit drivers at the range. It would depress the real estate markets of golf course subdivisions.

jeffwarne

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2022, 06:05:22 PM »
I love golf - but never understood the thrill of living next to a golf course. Especially on either side of a driving zone. I've seen a lot worse set ups than this and can only imaging that more and more of these cases will be getting filed and won once the legal profession realizes there's gold inside of those doglegs.


It seems VERY appealing to me.
$5 million awarded for a $750,000 house. ;D  and they get to keep the house!!
For $5 million I'm sure I could devise a dome to protect the property.
To say nothing of a highly sustainable stream of $5 balls ready to be resold to nearby golfers.


Seriously yet another reason why hot balls, low spin, lightweight extra long /thin faced rebounding drivers bring far, far more properties into play than 30 years ago.
But that ship sailed long ago......during the 20 plus years of "study"

"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Lou_Duran

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #13 on: April 26, 2022, 08:11:49 PM »
I am assuming that the defendant had a choice of whether to have a MA jury or a judge determine its fate.  As a private golf club, defense counsel might have thought twice about choosing a jury trial.  Maybe the club has good insurance, in which case, that company would have had some say.


MA real estate law might be different, but normally the seller, his agent, and that of the buyer have a duty to disclose any hazards and material conditions affecting the property.  Unless it just started raining balls upon purchase in 2017, seems like these parties might have some liability.


It would be interesting to know how long this has been going on, what communications past and present owners had with the club, and what steps the club has taken to mitigate the problem.


I typically don't have much sympathy for homeowners who choose where to live without assuming the risks of their choices.  The taxpayers of this country pay massive amounts of money to subsidize property owners who choose to locate in hazardous areas (flood and fire prone).  It is a problem with our society that when something bad happens, it has to be somebody else's fault.  Assumption of risk?  How quaint.
   

Terry Lavin

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2022, 08:46:27 PM »
Assumption of risk is certainly the first certitude that comes to mind here. You buy a home that abuts a golf course and then whine when you get some dimpled nuggets by your fence line, or near a bush or two?  Then they alter the hole a bit and the balls start hitting the house and the club does nothing?


I don’t know the facts of this case but there must have been a lot of evidence to overwhelm the instinctual urge to declare that the homeowner knew what he was getting into.


Based upon my experience this case is the exception the normal rule. But there had to be a lot of evidence to beat the normal result.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Jim_Coleman

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2022, 10:23:26 PM »
Happened at Quaker Ridge several years ago. We had a thread on it then, but I’m not good a finding old stuff.

mike_beene

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #16 on: April 26, 2022, 11:29:16 PM »
There is an old Ohio ( I think) appellate opinion where the justices critique each other’s golf games to prove wild shots are inevitable ( but not intentional). Maybe a lawyer with more energy can dig it up on Lexis or Westlaw.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2022, 12:26:52 AM »
The club, has indicated the legal fight is not over. Their attorney contends that “as a matter of law, the verdict of $3.5 million for alleged emotional distress is against the weight of the evidence.”
Also of legal note, according to the club’s attorney, the country club has an easement that extends to the residential lots abutting the golf course. In other words, the club may indeed have acquired the legal right for balls to sail outside the club’s grounds. As noted by the club’s attorney, “The judge didn’t agree with us; but he doesn’t get the last word on it.” In other words, stay tuned for the appeal.

http://www.golfdisputeresolution.com/?p=7699
« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 12:32:05 AM by Steve_ Shaffer »
"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
Hyman Roth to Michael Corleone: "We're bigger than US Steel."
Ben Hogan “The most important shot in golf is the next one”

Niall C

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2022, 02:58:08 AM »


I typically don't have much sympathy for homeowners who choose where to live without assuming the risks of their choices.  The taxpayers of this country pay massive amounts of money to subsidize property owners who choose to locate in hazardous areas (flood and fire prone).  It is a problem with our society that when something bad happens, it has to be somebody else's fault.  Assumption of risk?  How quaint.
 


Lou


Is this not going against your usual reasoning that a property owner should be able to do whatever they wish with their property which in this case would be the homeowner enjoying his backyard without being hit by golf balls ? And IIRC do you not also argue that where a property owner is restricted in what they can do with their property because of lack of planning (zoning) that they should be compensated. Would the same principle not apply in this case in that the party preventing the owner from having peaceful enjoyment of his property should compensate the homeowner ?


Niall

Kalen Braley

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2022, 10:44:17 AM »
Niall,

Its always been a conundrum from a liberation perspective. 

Whose rights out weighs who?  One who wishes to have a peaceful/serene/quiet backyard, or his neighbor who wishes to regularly host pool parties with lots of people and loud music?

And this doesn't even mention zoning.  I've met a few who claim if they want to build a gas station or shooting range on their property, then nothing should prevent them from doing so.




Lincoln Duff

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2022, 10:52:00 AM »
Happened at Quaker Ridge several years ago. We had a thread on it then, but I’m not good a finding old stuff.


The second hole at Quaker Ridge had a home on it and the homeowner sued the club, alleging golfers would constantly hit and leave balls in his yard. The club and their defense, thought he was exaggerating the number and came up with a solution... An employee would sit on the 2nd hole and hand out a logo ball to each player, the player had to play that that ball and then return it in a drop box beside the green. The employee would count how many balls were handed out vs how many were returned and could know the number of balls potentially lost that day. It was very strange, but at least they were handing out a Pro-V.

Steve Lapper

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2022, 12:28:56 PM »
Lincoln's tale of Quaker Ridge is accurate. Besides removing some trees down the left side (not sure if it was directly related..you'd have to ask Gil or Jeff Lewis), the hole wasn't touched. A very large tree was installed along the homeowner's property line. There is a great deal of context here. A member friend told me that the house was on land developed by a group who bought it from a previous (semi-famous) family estate that was perpetually denied membership. The current, litigious, owner also tried to ransom the club.


As a multi-course owner, we deal with this issue constantly. I'd wager the jury's misplaced reward in this case will be eventually and significantly reduced, if not reversed, on appeal. Most, if not all states, follow traditional tort law precedent and hold the individual golfer ultimately responsible. Sure, courses aware of such problems should and often must take whatever reasonable steps to protect adjacent neighbors and their property, but the golfer is undeniably the initial injuring party.




« Last Edit: April 27, 2022, 12:59:59 PM by Steve Lapper »
The conventional view serves to protect us from the painful job of thinking."--John Kenneth Galbraith

Lou_Duran

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2022, 03:37:01 PM »


I typically don't have much sympathy for homeowners who choose where to live without assuming the risks of their choices.  The taxpayers of this country pay massive amounts of money to subsidize property owners who choose to locate in hazardous areas (flood and fire prone).  It is a problem with our society that when something bad happens, it has to be somebody else's fault.  Assumption of risk?  How quaint.
 


Lou


Is this not going against your usual reasoning that a property owner should be able to do whatever they wish with their property which in this case would be the homeowner enjoying his backyard without being hit by golf balls ? And IIRC do you not also argue that where a property owner is restricted in what they can do with their property because of lack of planning (zoning) that they should be compensated. Would the same principle not apply in this case in that the party preventing the owner from having peaceful enjoyment of his property should compensate the homeowner ?


Niall


Boy, Niall, either you're just poking me or have a very poor understanding of my "usual reasoning".  Let's deal with your recollections on the latter first which are probably mostly based on the Coul Links fiasco.


Yes, it is my position that if an owner's pre-existing rights are affected by a subsequent zoning or planning decision, he should be compensated for the resulting diminution of his value.  In the Coul Links case, a public body deemed part of the farmer's land to have "special scientific interest" and, as a result of this new designation, the owner was greatly limited on how he could enjoy his property, i.e. lowering its value.  Had the owner acquired the property post the SSSI designation, that limitation should have been priced into the acquisition- i.e. he should have known what he was purchasing- and, in Duranland, he would not have suffered a loss or be due compensation.


Absent zoning and planning, a site's value is largely based on the current use and the likely, but not guaranteed value when the planning process takes place.  I've helped take agricultural land through planning and zoning at a price reflecting the desired zoning, but it has always been contingent on obtaining zoning approval.  The few large tracts of un-zoned raw land that I've brokered were generally at a price that rewarded the buyer for assuming the risk.  I've known a number of land investors who are particularly skilled at achieving higher density zoning ("entitlements") and they have typically made a killing over time.


Re: the MA case, as others noted, there are likely facts we are unaware of.  We know that the golf course was there well before the house was built.  It is unclear if the hole was changed subsequent to the purchase which aggravated the nuisance.  If not, and the occurrence of errant shots hadn't all of a sudden skyrocketed, as a member of the jury, I'd likely come down on the side of the club owners.  If the house was built within code and with proper setbacks, the judge might have ordered some mediation pre-trial to see if the club and the homeowners could come up with a reasonable solution to minimize the problem.


I have never implied that a property owner has absolute rights to the use of his property without regard to the rights of other property owners nearby or affected parties.  Most situations have reasonable solutions if not reasonable conflicting parties.  Coul Links, for example, would have had minimal impact on the SSSI and some accommodations might have been made had the decision been made on facts and not politics.  I do understand that for some, a square foot of impact is more than could be tolerated.

Carl Johnson

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2022, 06:13:14 PM »
Why would you buy/build a house on the inside of a dogleg?  Or anywhere on a golf course, for that matter.

mike_beene

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Re: Homeowners sue over house getting hit -- thoughts
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2022, 12:07:33 AM »
Carl: Maybe the answer to you question is “to make 5 million dollars.”