The Battle for LA - Riviera vs. LACC - Match Play - FINAL

[Jason Thurman]

As a guy who has never played either course...


1. I'm following this thread. Won't have much to add, but glad it exists and will keep clicking it and reserve the right to share completely ignorant opinions void of firsthand context.


2. Agree with others who cite the tendency to pick a winner for each hole when halves happen often in true match play.


3. I just can't believe that flat-looking journey towards a hotel on the horizon at LACC's opener stands up against one of the more recognizable openers in golf. Even if there are things to complain about with Riviera's opener from an architectural standpoint, don't we have to give it some cred as one of the most anticipated opening shots in golf, dropping us into one of the most incomparable settings in golf, and also appreciate the chance it offers to feel like a star in the city where that feeling matters the most, as we hear our name announced to a small gallery and take a fair shot at an even-or-better start?

[PCCraig]

Terrific contributions so far on the thread. I'm clearly no expert on both courses but I think this is a fun match and worthy of study & frank discussion.


Moving on to the 4th hole and shockingly they are both mid-to-long par-3's...


RIVIERA


The 4th at Riviera is nothing short of world-class. A one shot hole playing over 230 yards, the green sits behind a massive bunker short. But, alas, the hole plays along the massive ridge/hillside on the right so there is a huge Redan-esque kicker slope for the smart player to use to sling shots along the ground and toward the putting surface.





LACC


Walking off the 3rd green, you stay on the same hilltop to find the 4th green. And what a view you are rewarded with. A downhill par-3 that plays 210-220 yards, the hole is visually stunning. It is also an intimidating one as there does not appear to be a "good" place to miss your tee shot as you play down to the bottom of a wash/barranca.









Both are great golf holes. The picture above illustrates a golf hole that few golfers could possibly resist the urge to play, but to me the 4th at Riviera wins this one fairly easily. Hitting a long iron or wood and attempting to use the kicker slope to avoid the scary bunker short is a thrill and its green contours are a sight to behold.


MATCH


LACC - 2UP

[Mark Kiely]

Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?

[PCCraig]

Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?

Mark -


I didn't take a single photo at LACC.


Every photo on this thread has been copied over from Ran's respective profiles in "Courses by Country".


The goal of the thread is to discuss both of these great golf courses. I figured it would be easier for those following along to copy over a photo or two for comparison as opposed to them having to click and and forth between profiles.

[Matt_Cohn]

Just reposting since this got stuck at the bottom of the previous page:

Let's put the results up to a good old-fashioned vote! Please use this Google Form to vote for hole-by-hole winners. You can do the whole 18 in one go, or you can submit votes for individual hole numbers as we go along. Just please don't vote twice for the same hole number!

Early nugget: 6 of the 18 holes are unanimous choices among the first half-dozen voters.

[V. Kmetz]

Aren't you jeopardizing any chance of ever playing LACC again by posting photos of the course?

Mark -

I didn't take a single photo at LACC.

Every photo on this thread has been copied over from Ran's respective profiles in "Courses by Country".

The goal of the thread is to discuss both of these great golf courses. I figured it would be easier for those following along to copy over a photo or two for comparison as opposed to them having to click and and forth between profiles.

It's a good, sober thread PC; as we all know, in the end, these comparisons are fun but fictitious --it hardly matters who won, or who in God's omniscient eye is "better, " but a chance to discuss the salient features that make up GCA in pieces, on courses, or just via individual holes and elements...hopefully you'll have a 19th hole to discuss routing/flow/aesthetic atmosphere besides the courses as 18 individual competitive comparisons...


And my own refereeing has All Square through #4s LoL   

[Matt_Cohn]

Early survey results have an exact tie for #1 and solid wins for LACC on 2 and 3. LACC 2 up through 3…but things are about to change!

[Adam G]

Hoping PC continues his analysis and tour? I hope the commentary hasn't dissuaded you from continuing?

[Matt_Cohn]

So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).

[PCCraig]

So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).

Matt -


I would recommend let's take our time a bit. Maybe go through the holes in more detail, discuss, and then at the end if you want to do a vote let's do one then?

[Matt_Cohn]

So far with 16 votes: if only an exact tie results in a halved hole, then the match is tied overall and Riviera wins on the clubhouse tiebreaker. If only a larger margin of +/- 3 votes out of 16 results in a won or lost hole, then LA wins 2&1 (though Riviera wins #18).

Matt -


I would recommend let's take our time a bit. Maybe go through the holes in more detail, discuss, and then at the end if you want to do a vote let's do one then?

The poll will stay open! I'm just giving early results.

[PCCraig]

On to the 5th hole...


RIVIERA


The 5th at Riviera is a mid-length par-4, with the canyon wall to the right side of the hole, similar to the 4th. The hole is awesomely strategic. Off the tee you and go right, which will bring a huge mound into play that will make your approach blind but will allow you to run up your shot toward the pin. If you play away from the mound down the left, you will have to take on the tough greenside bunker short left. The green here is really something and features a huge spine running through it and is very fun to putt. There is short grass long and balls running through the green can lead to tough up and downs.









LACC


The 5th at LACC is a brute of a par-4 at over 480 yards. The tee shot plays up a hill and is semi-blind to a fairway with no fairway bunkers. The green has a couple of big fingers that move around two greenside bunkers on the right. The left side of the green is fairly open to run up shots, but in order to get that angle one must take on a grove of trees just off the fairway to the left. The fairway has a little crown on the left side and balls can easily bounce perfectly right into the fairway or left into the trees. The 5th at LACC is a solid hole, and one that will drive the average score up a bit at next year's US Open.




In my opinion, the 5th at Riviera wins this one. The big, bold features on that hole, coupled with the fun green makes for a more interesting hole overall, and one that you would want to play again immediately.




MATCH

LACC - 1UP

[PCCraig]

I've realized that LACC has been playing "out of turn", and since it's 1up it will play first on the 6th hole...


LACC


The tee shot on the 330 yard par-4 6th is a thrilling one. The fairway in front of you has humps and rolls galore and it's not clear as to where you should be aiming or even what club you should be hitting. Smart players will have peeked to their left while playing the 5th to see where the pin is on the 6th.


The drivable hole might tempt a long hitter to hit over a mound and shorter tree on the right to attempt to catch a slope and drive the green. As Ran notes in his profile, if the pin is on the front portion the better play might be to hit a driver long left of the green to chip backwards to the tiny target. A fantastically fun short par-4 that you would want to play again and again.





 


RIVIERA


The par-3 6th hole at Riviera is a well documented and famous hole...for good reason. The hole is just a mid-iron for most players, but the green is one of the most severe and fun I have ever seen. There is the famous bunker in the middle of the green, but the putting surface features huge slopes long left, long right, right, and short of the bunker that allow for very creative shots. A world-class par-3.





The PGA Tour put together this highlight reel of all of the best shots on and around Riv's 6th hole which illustrate just how severe the green slopes are!: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUuda7UXnOI






Both are great golf holes, but as I mention above I think the 6th at Riviera takes the edge. It's just a world class par-3 and one that is so unique and fun. The 6th at LACC is a very strong hole and perhaps it reveals itself with more plays, but Riviera's 6th is such a strong hole I don't know how this one is halved.


MATCH


ALL SQUARE THRU 6

[PCCraig]

On to the 7th...


RIVIERA


The 7th at Riviera is a mid-length par-4 which features a barranca on the right and formidable bunkering down the left side of the fairway. The fairway is slightly domed as well adding to the interest off the tee. I was told that this is the Pro's least favorite tee shot on the course and you can see why. The ideal tee ball will end up near the right corner of the left fairway bunkers, opening up a more open approach shot to the green. The green here is small but of appropriate size as most players won't have more than a short iron into the green.








LACC


The 7th at LACC sits on a relatively subtle piece of land, and features a sandy waste area that cuts across the hole on a 45* angle. It features significant variety, including the ability to either play as a long ~250 yard par-3 or as a short ~290 yard par-4 when the pin is tucked back right. I personally find it thrilling to have to hit a hard 2-iron or a 3-wood on a half-par hole such as this, and it adds to the overall variety of the par-3's at LACC.








Both are very good holes, however I give the edge to the 7th at LACC. It's half par nature and strategic waste area make for a more unique hole overall. The 7th at Riviera is a very good hole, however it appears to me that the strategy is more one dimensional as the ideal line off the tee doesn't really change from day to day or pin location to pin location.


MATCH

LACC - 1 UP

[Matt_Cohn]

The survey says...


1: Riviera, match stands at R+1
2: LACC, Tied
3: LACC, L+1
4: Riviera, Tied
5: Riviera, R+1
6. Tie, R+1
7. LACC, Tied

[Peter Sayegh]

PC Craig, please continue this thread. I've been enjoying it.
Matt, I have no problem with your survey but your updates do disrupt the flow of PC's analysis. Maybe wait to post the results after PC has finished his tour and the poll's voters can "defend" their opinions?

[PCCraig]

On to the 8th...


LACC


Just steps from the 7th green is the 8th tee, where the player will find a shorter par-5 of about 530 yards. The fairway off the tee slopes left to right, and the player feels the need to flirt with the fairway bunkers on the left as there are trees and a barranca on the right. That barranca cuts across the hole at about 150 yards from the green and acts as a wonderful strategic hazard. If you want to go for the green in two, the shot certainly calls for a draw however the ball is below your feet. If you aren't comfortable you can easily lays up short and right but that leaves a tricky downhill-ish pitch over a greenside bunker and that barranca behind the green waiting for topped shots. Risk reward at it's finest!











RIVIERA

The 8th hole is visually overwhelming off of the tee. Much like the 8th at LA, a barranca is the primary feature and cuts the hole pretty much down the middle. There is a fairway left, and another right, with a table top-esque green surrounded by shortgrass. The right fairway landing area seems much more narrow, but the green appears to point toward that landing area for a potentially better angle. The left fairway also doesn't seem very forgiving with tough fairway bunkering but I'm told it's the more popular play. Going into the barranca is no picnic as it will leave you with a largely blind approach and your lie will be very unpredictable.









Both holes are pretty spectacularly unique. I feel like the 8th at LACC is probably the better hole and the green is unique, but I can't seem to sell myself that it is better outside the margin of error. So it's a draw.


MATCH


LACC - 1 up thru 8.

[Robert_Ball]

Does the winner of this go against Rustic?   

[Matt_Cohn]

Matt, I have no problem with your survey but your updates do disrupt the flow of PC's analysis. Maybe wait to post the results after PC has finished his tour and the poll's voters can "defend" their opinions?

Hi Peter, not a single person has voted on a hole by hole basis. Everybody who’s voted has voted for all 18 at once; in other words, nobody is waiting for discussion and analysis to vote. So whenever Craig wants to name his winner of each hole seems like an appropriate time to see whether the voters agree with him or not. Perhaps Craig should wait until the discussion of each hole has concluded rather than declaring a winner in his initial post. 


Incidentally, the survey has LACC winning number 7 by a decent margin of 13 to 8, with 5 voting for a tie.

[Brent Carlson]

I'm really enjoying your match Pat.  Interestingly our host at LA said when pros play #8 many of them drive over the sycamores to the right fairway, leaving only a short iron in.  At Riv I wish they would restore #8 to the original Thomas design.  It is an excellent hole that could be even better.

[PCCraig]

Moving onto the 9th....


LACC


The 9th is a striking slightly uphill par-3. It plays over a deep barranca, with the beautiful sprawling clubhouse in the background as well as a very cool walking bridge. The green is bunkered short, left, and right and the green has quite a bit of tilt back to the front of the green toward the barranca. Pins on the edges of the green are tempting but aggressive play brings a bogey into play. A very memorable par-3.





RIVIERA


The 9th at Riviera also plays uphill toward an iconic clubhouse. At over 450 yards uphill with a smaller green it is a stout test. Off the tee the right bunker can be more easily carried, but it brings into play a more difficult approach to the green that is angled 45* toward the left side of the fairway. For the best angle the player must hug the left bunker off the tee. The green is pitched hard back to front leading to some very hard putts if the player finds themselves above the hole. A solid strategic hole.








Both are solid golf holes. The 9th at LACC might be more memorable due to its dramatic setting and the heroic tee shot, but the 9th at Riviera is heavily interesting & strategic. It's tough for me to find a clear winner here, so I'll say it's a draw.


MATCH


LACC - 1up Thru 9

[PCCraig]

After a stop at the wonderfully old-fashioned, sunken halfway house at LACC we head to the 10th tee...


LACC


The 10th at LACC is a mid-length par-4. The tee is just steps from the 9th green and the view from there is a very attractive one. The right to left sloping fairway here is combined with the 16th and there is a massive amount of width visible. The bunker complex on the right sits on the high side of the fairway. If flirted with, or carried, the green/pin will be visible on the approach. If the player plays away from the bunkers the resulting approach shot is blind and has to take on more aggressive greenside bunkers. A solid hole.





RIVIERA


Riviera's finest hole and one of the best holes in the world. A short, drivable par-4 with a multitude of strategic options. The primary feature is the tiny, slender green that is angled just so and sloped just right that anything right of center is pretty much impossible to keep on the green, even with a chip. If this hole doesn't get your blood pumping from the tee, I would suggest picking up a different sport!


















The 10th at LACC is a fine hole but Riviera wins this one fairly easily.


MATCH




All square through 10

[Adam G]

Interestingly, Shackelford tipped Riviera for a future US Open in the early 2030s. I thought if LACC went well next year it might get another but for reasons as of yet unclear there are at least rumblings that they are going to Riviera instead.

[Matt_Cohn]

Survey says:


8 strongly to LACC, LACC 2 up
9 to Riviera, LACC 1 up
10 unanimously to Riviera, tied

[PCCraig]

RIVIERA


The 11th at Riviera is a mid-length par-5. The tee shot is a narrow one, with trees left and right as well as the driving range on your left. Interestingly there isn't a single fairway bunker on the hole. Strategic interest comes on the second shot which must cover a barranca that sits about 150 yards out from the green. With today's technology, as long as the tee ball lands in the fairway the carry over the barranca is not as daring as it was with previous generations. The green has an interesting knob but as compared to other greens at Riviera it is fairly benign. A solid & strategic par-5.


[size=78%]


LACC


The 11th at LACC is nothing short of stunning. A downhill par-3 that can play upwards of 275 yards (!!) from the back tee, the hole plays similarly to a reverse redan. The player aims their long iron at the kicker slope or at worst the left side of the green and watches as firm turf and gravity takes their ball toward the hole. If the green is missed, there are sharp fall offs left, long, and right making for tough up and downs. The hole is a wonderful combination of both natural beauty with the surrounding barrancas but with downtown Los Angeles in the background.





The 11th at LACC is a world class par-3 and takes this round from Riviera fairly easily.


MATCH


LACC - 1up through 11.[/size]