News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Tim Gavrich

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2022, 08:47:45 AM »
One of the best (IMO) aspects of Old Town's routing went unmentioned in the original post: the fact that the first three holes make a mini-loop of their own that returns to the clubhouse. Perfect for members who want to just play a few holes late in the day or for kids just learning the game.


It's more of a practical feature than an artistic one, but no less important to the excellence of the overall routing.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Rory Connaughton

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2022, 09:16:56 AM »
Jim,


I think one one of the reasons Lancaster has been able to change hole sequence over the years (arriving very nearly where it started save for the 4 1941/42 holes) is the loop within a loop routing. Regardless of sequence, you're covering terrain in the same general path as has always been. 

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2022, 09:43:47 AM »
Yes, after 500 years of architecting rules, TOC would probably be panned for its routing today.  Too many greens and tees unsafe distances from each other, 16 holes with OB right, etc., etc., etc.  Things change.  We learn.


It's an interesting question when doing a course routing evaluation for a master plan, biz study, or consulting report.  I use the number of good holes, then safety, then length, flow, etc. etc. to suggest whether a course needs any holes moved.  It is always the first step in a master plan, because there is no sense in redesigning a green if it is going to be moved in some routing proposal.


We had to evaluate routing in terms of how it works today, not so much why it was great when it was done. For historic courses, I doubt many architects would propose re-routing, even if they would never do that if routing on that piece of property today.  For other courses, often the biggest thing arguing in favor of keeping the existing routing 100% intact is that it is cheaper to rebuild in place than it is to create a new golf hole somewhere else.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2022, 09:49:33 AM »

On a related point made above...the impact of land available on routing...I have a theory that the best routings are almost always where the available plot of land is small or difficult to deal with...as it forces an architect to "dig deep" and really become creative.  On the other hand a large, easy to work with plot of land can allow the architect to get lazy as there is no need to "dig deep". I think this tendency is prevalent in almost all professions...difficult situations generate the most creative solutions...easy situations means there is not the need to be so creative.


Paul, I tend to agree that property constraints, be it topographical or acreage, can produce a more creative or unconventional routing. That doesn't however mean the course will be any better than a bigger ballpark with a balanced yet unadventurous routing, only that its routing might be more memorable as a result of the limitations it faced.


As has been mentioned, traditional out and back patterns on links courses don't seem to hurt their prestige or rankings, even if we may find the routing uninspiring now. Conversely, are there examples of exceptional routings that elevate a course's overall estimation? Could a place like Shoreacres--I haven't seen it in person, but thinking out loud--fit that billing? [size=78%]   [/size]
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Adam Lawrence

  • Total Karma: 7
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2022, 09:55:20 AM »
Out and back links routings might seem uninspiring, but a lot of the time they might be the best way to use the land. Most areas of linksland are relatively narrow; as such they are often unsuited to routings that move around more.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2022, 09:57:30 AM »
With regard to my previous comment, Bel Air also comes to mind. Now that's a course where the likely first thing people think about is its actual routing!
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2022, 09:58:07 AM »
Out and back links routings might seem uninspiring, but a lot of the time they might be the best way to use the land. Most areas of linksland are relatively narrow; as such they are often unsuited to routings that move around more.


+1
Instagram: mj_c_golf

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2022, 10:36:55 AM »
Out and Back routings were definitely a result of the best land parcel with a lot of linksland, which after all tends to have ridges formed parallel to the seashore and is often only 200-300 yards wide before transitioning to softer, inland forms.


But generally a few of them were really a good example of the oft-repeated “most natural way to walk the land if a golf course wasn’t there”.


Faced with a similar parcel of links now, most architects would try to work in a couple of switchback / perpendicular par-3’s and mix up the slice and hook side for the seaward run of holes.

Jim Sherma

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #33 on: March 23, 2022, 10:46:11 AM »
Jim,


I think one one of the reasons Lancaster has been able to change hole sequence over the years (arriving very nearly where it started save for the 4 1941/42 holes) is the loop within a loop routing. Regardless of sequence, you're covering terrain in the same general path as has always been.


Very true - also the added and subtracted holes were both designed by Flynn pending the acquisition of the land across the river.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Total Karma: 4
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #34 on: March 23, 2022, 11:09:09 AM »
I was often surprised that inner nine-outer loop nine type routings seemed to take up considerably less land than other types on a "regular" piece of property.  Not sure why.


As to out and back, an old story, but I once got a call from a guy who asked if 300 something acres was enough for a golf course.  I said you might even get 27 or 36 holes on it.  He sent me maps of his proposed land......he was thinking of buying an abandoned rail line, which was mostly 100 feet wide and a several miles long, which would yield exactly zero golf holes, LOL.


Yes, out and back works on narrow property, and not all parcels are equal when it comes to placing 18 holes.


Many people who visit gca offices are non-plussed to find plastic golf holes of various lengths, hinged at the 800 foot doglegs (or whatever that gca uses) as an aid to routing.  Often, the first routing task is to throw 18 of those, with approximate lengths you thinkg you want, on the site plan, just to see if they fit, and if close, how they might best fit.  If they seem to fit, then you start looking at how to use the perimeters, where the clubhouse might go, etc., before filling in the rest.  Come to think of it, maybe that process alone explains the inside-outside loop routings of many courses, LOL.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Adam G

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #35 on: March 23, 2022, 11:16:00 AM »
With regard to my previous comment, Bel Air also comes to mind. Now that's a course where the likely first thing people think about is its actual routing!


Not going to lie -- I saw an LA guy post a thread with "Best Routings" as the title and I assumed it had to be about Bel Air, not Old Town.


Bel Air sticks out for its chutzpah and ingenuity. The tunnels and elevators are pretty unimaginable today, let alone in the 20s. But it works beautifully as a solution to the puzzle of routing a course through adjacent canyons. Just brilliant.

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #36 on: March 23, 2022, 11:22:25 AM »
Out and Back routings were definitely a result of the best land parcel with a lot of linksland, which after all tends to have ridges formed parallel to the seashore and is often only 200-300 yards wide before transitioning to softer, inland forms.


But generally a few of them were really a good example of the oft-repeated “most natural way to walk the land if a golf course wasn’t there”.


Faced with a similar parcel of links now, most architects would try to work in a couple of switchback / perpendicular par-3’s and mix up the slice and hook side for the seaward run of holes.


How many great links courses are truly up and back? Shouldn't the architect get the credit for a routing that maximizes the land forms? NB, Brora, and RD all strike me as examples.


Ira

Ally Mcintosh

  • Total Karma: 6
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #37 on: March 23, 2022, 12:33:56 PM »
Definitely Ira. Most have a few kinks here or there. Always the best land forms should be one of the very highest priorities.



I would just think that most modern day architects would put a higher priority than 125 years ago on trying to break up the feeling of “out and back” if at all possible.


Generalisation of course. But so is almost every discussion about best routing.

Mark Pearce

  • Total Karma: -2
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #38 on: March 23, 2022, 01:00:13 PM »
No love for Muirfield in this thread?  Seems to me that it ticks lots of the boxes.  Makes great use of the land, constantly changing direction, great holes.  Lot's of "confluences", which I think is a strength, because it provides options for shorter loops.  1st and 10th tees close together, as well, which makes two tee starts easier.
In July I will be riding two stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity, including Mont Ventoux for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Dan Gallaway

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #39 on: March 23, 2022, 01:07:52 PM »
The first out and back routing I played was Chateau Whistler. I recall enjoying the ability to see what was in store for the second 9.  My group is visiting Scotland for our first time this May.  I've spent far too much time on the course websites and Google Maps to develop my strategy for the courses we're playing.  I think I've resolved myself to peeking over to the left while traveling out at TOC to help determine how I'm going to play the holes coming back in.

MCirba

  • Total Karma: 7
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #40 on: March 23, 2022, 01:49:57 PM »
No love for Muirfield in this thread?  Seems to me that it ticks lots of the boxes.  Makes great use of the land, constantly changing direction, great holes.  Lot's of "confluences", which I think is a strength, because it provides options for shorter loops.  1st and 10th tees close together, as well, which makes two tee starts easier.
Definitely a terrific routing at Muirfield and the surprising thing to me is that the very non-links-stereotypical-out-and-back, outside clockwise, inside counter-clockwise actually goes all the way back to the Old Tom Morris initial course there.   Cool stuff.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Tim Gallant

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #41 on: March 23, 2022, 02:04:45 PM »
Wouldn't Best Routing need to be graded based on the piece of ground you start with?


Locally, Memphis CC probably wouldn't make anyone's Top 100 routings but given the constraints of the property Ross had to deal with (~110 acres, a couple of funky corners, etc), it's a 10/10. I'm not sure anyone could've done better.


This is correct.


Some of the best routings are on courses we never talk about….


Some of the best courses have routings where 90% of architects would have come up with something equally as good.


Ally, I think you're spot on. I listened to the firm and fast podcast you did with Frank and Clyde and remember you saying that 9 wasn't necessarily obvious if one were to route it themselves, and yet, that turned out to be one of the more memorable holes on the 18. I think you'd really need to know the property, and know GCA very well (ie - a professional) to truly differentiate between a good and a great routing.


I'm curious to hear if people think Sand Hills is a good/great routing. One the one hand, there were 100s of holes out there, but on the other, to come up with the course that C&C did must have been a real skill. To get the balance right must have been tough.

Paul Rudovsky

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #42 on: March 23, 2022, 02:30:21 PM »
No love for Muirfield in this thread?  Seems to me that it ticks lots of the boxes.  Makes great use of the land, constantly changing direction, great holes.  Lot's of "confluences", which I think is a strength, because it provides options for shorter loops.  1st and 10th tees close together, as well, which makes two tee starts easier.


imo the Muirfield routing w 8-10 holes along the circumference and the rest inside those 8-10 is the vest routing scheme out there (other things being equal).  Other examples of it are quaker ridge (ny) and onwentsia(il).  I think muirfield was the first course ever to use that type of routing

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2022, 03:12:55 PM »
One routing feature I admire is when an architect finds a "crease" for a cool Par 3. Pasatiempo 15, Nairn 4, and Friar's Head 17 come to mind.




Terry Lavin

  • Total Karma: -1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2022, 04:18:15 PM »
One routing feature I admire is when an architect finds a "crease" for a cool Par 3. Pasatiempo 15, Nairn 4, and Friar's Head 17 come to mind.


Willie Park Jr. did this at the 13th hole at Olympia Fields North. It’s a shortish par 3 that serves as the connector for the lower part of the course and introduces the player to the big finishing holes. Just brilliant.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people.  H.L. Mencken

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #45 on: March 23, 2022, 07:14:47 PM »
Capilano and Merion are both better routings than Old Town in my eye, but that's not a slight at Old Town at all. Merion is bonkers to get that much golf in that property, and then Capilano is insane to have that much elevation change and still be walkable.

I find Merion's routing very inelegant,but it does provide a good rhythm.

Old Town's routing is sublime for the fact that loads of holes have water, but it doesn't feel this way and nobody ever mentions it.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 1
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #46 on: March 23, 2022, 07:31:07 PM »
The routing at Kington is cool.
The hill the entire course is draped over is steep but apart from the short yardage par-4 1st hole you don’t really notice much in the way of climbing.
Atb

Definitely one of the best routings I have encountered. Not only is the hill dealt with in a great way to ease the walk and alter wind direction, but there are boozer loops which ease the restricted nature of an out and back design.
1&18
1-3,17&18
1-4 & 12-18
1-7 & 15-18
1-7 & 15 & 18

I love boozer loops for private clubs.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Jerry Rossi

  • Total Karma: 0
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #47 on: March 23, 2022, 08:37:06 PM »

Great topic Michael and responding to the part about Shoreacres - what makes it great IMO isn’t that Raynor decided to not use the land overlooking Lake Michigan, but rather that you never think about that when you’re out there playing it!  At least I never have!


As has been mentioned, traditional out and back patterns on links courses don't seem to hurt their prestige or rankings, even if we may find the routing uninspiring now. Conversely, are there examples of exceptional routings that elevate a course's overall estimation? Could a place like Shoreacres--I haven't seen it in person, but thinking out loud--fit that billing? [size=78%]   [/size]
Instagram: @putt4dough24

Ira Fishman

  • Total Karma: 2
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #48 on: March 23, 2022, 09:35:46 PM »
A couple of other routing decisions that strike me as distinctive in a positive way:


**Weaving together different land forms. CPC gets a lot of proper credit for this, but other than perhaps Number 1, all of the land struck me as terrific. So Friar’s Head is the course that really is impressive in weaving the dunes and potato field together. But Golspie should get some kudos as well.


**Audacity. Has anyone else found Old Mac 7 and NB 17 similar on this score? And is there a better example than the Dell hole at Lahinch?


Ira




Michael Chadwick

  • Total Karma: 10
Re: Best Routings
« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2022, 10:22:11 PM »
A couple of other routing decisions that strike me as distinctive in a positive way:


**Weaving together different land forms. CPC gets a lot of proper credit for this, but other than perhaps Number 1, all of the land struck me as terrific. So Friar’s Head is the course that really is impressive in weaving the dunes and potato field together. But Golspie should get some kudos as well.


**Audacity. Has anyone else found Old Mac 7 and NB 17 similar on this score? And is there a better example than the Dell hole at Lahinch?


Ira


Agree, Ira--in which case, Bandon Trails is one of the best experiential routings, traversing through three distinctive areas (dunes, meadow, forest).


Adam also brought up an interesting point earlier re: Highland Links. Opting for a key long walk, but making sure the payoff is such that a) the holes will be that much stronger because of the gap required between them and b) the walk itself is breathtaking enough to compensate for the distance taken. Going from CPC 14 to 15 and 16 being the iconic examples, or so I hear! ;)
Instagram: mj_c_golf