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Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2022, 06:23:45 PM »
Shiskine at thirty quid is the best money you’ll ever spend.
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Thomas Dai

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2022, 05:03:28 AM »
Could be argued that this scenario is perhaps partly ‘our’ collective fault. Publicise courses particularly quiet places and wee gems and watch the price go up or keep quiet about them?
Atb

David Jones

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2022, 06:39:48 AM »
Could be argued that this scenario is perhaps partly ‘our’ collective fault. Publicise courses particularly quiet places and wee gems and watch the price go up or keep quiet about them?
Atb


I think there is something in this. The rise of 'Top 100' lists, social media accounts, drone photography - all these have been contributory factors. People are probably playing away from their home club more than they had before, partly as a result of these marketing efforts.


When I was researching the blog piece I phoned up quite a few of the courses to get the information. It was clear that many were having challenges fitting any more visitors onto their tee sheets this year - and not just at the very top courses.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2022, 09:07:44 AM »
Could be argued that this scenario is perhaps partly ‘our’ collective fault. Publicise courses particularly quiet places and wee gems and watch the price go up or keep quiet about them?
Atb


I think there is something in this. The rise of 'Top 100' lists, social media accounts, drone photography - all these have been contributory factors. People are probably playing away from their home club more than they had before, partly as a result of these marketing efforts.


When I was researching the blog piece I phoned up quite a few of the courses to get the information. It was clear that many were having challenges fitting any more visitors onto their tee sheets this year - and not just at the very top courses.


I’ve warned you guys for years about the dangers of creating images that can not be recreated by the human eye. Pod gugglers unite!!! The intrinsic value of free golf is going no where but up.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2022, 10:35:14 AM »
Now more than ever I think this rings true...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSNahv--h8

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2022, 11:23:29 AM »
Now more than ever I think this rings true...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsSNahv--h8


Meme talk and YouTube links are just fuel on the fire. Words please.

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2022, 03:52:58 PM »
I played TOC in September and there were two things I learned:


1.  Tee times were solely for the player(s) who booked the time be it 1,2 3 or 4 and they would not pair up any of the groups.  You could approach someone who had a time and ask if you could join them but there was no requirement that they agree to your joining them.


2.  I played TOC with a gentleman from Texas who bought a flat in the town and was able to buy a season ticket.  He told me that there was a very long waiting list for any of the categories.  I played The New with a fellow who lived outside of the town and was a member of another course and he told me as well as the season tickets had long waiting lists. 

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2022, 04:16:40 PM »
You have your choices, to pay or not to play.




What Pee's me off is there doesn't seem to be a concomitant rise in the standards of personal customer care/service with golf in the UK. In particular I well remember it was standard practice only a few years ago, that on turning up if the Pro had to apologise for greens just been spiked/bunkers or hole out of play for repair/etc they would automatically suggest I pay e.g. 50-75% of the publicised Green Fee.
On a number of times of times in recent years this hasn't happened. One course had an alternate hole in play (a featureless  for an Par 4) and two holes radically shortened and the full Winter Green Fee was expected. At another famous course on here, I Queried the asking price (in  of a Client I had brought) and mentioned the Green Fees quoted on the phone the week before. I was told the Assistant had obviously made a mistake as that was the rate when two or more holes were being worked on and in fact they only had large GUR areas on one hole that day, so list price was due. I was in no position to argue.  Again took 3 friends to a course where I'm a member and (with no prior warning) the greens were all an inch deep in sand.  Full guest fees please. Next day I called the secretary and he promised to discuss it at the next Board Meeting. My bad, I didn't follow this up.
I can give of other examples but it seems now that only at the lesser known courses does the Pro offer a discount at their discretion.  At the 'expensive' end of the scale the fee is non negotiable, no matter what the state of the course. This is not a good business model going forward.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2022, 04:50:01 PM by Tony_Muldoon »
Let's make GCA grate again!

Scott Warren

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2022, 04:49:46 PM »
Tony's last para in larger font:


On a number of times of times in recent years this hasn't happened. One course had an alternate hole in play (a featureless Par 3 substitute for an Par 4) and two holes radically shortened and the full Winter Green Fee was expected. At another famous course on here, I Queried the asking price (in front of a Client I had brought) and mentioned the Green Fees quoted on the phone the week before. I was told the Assistant had obviously made a mistake as that was the rate when two or more holes were being worked on and in fact they only had large GUR areas on one hole that day, so list price was due. I was in no position to argue.  Again took 3 friends to a course where I'm a member and (with no prior warning) the greens were all an inch deep in sand.  Full guest fees please. Next day I called the secretary and he promised to discuss it at the next Board Meeting. My bad, I didn't follow this up.I can give of other examples but it seems now that only at the lesser known courses does the Pro offer a discount at their discretion.  At the 'expensive' end of the scale the fee is non negotiable, no matter what the state of the course. This is not a good business model going forward

Tony_Muldoon

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2022, 04:50:55 PM »
Tony's last para in larger font:


On a number of times of times in recent years this hasn't happened. One course had an alternate hole in play (a featureless Par 3 substitute for an Par 4) and two holes radically shortened and the full Winter Green Fee was expected. At another famous course on here, I Queried the asking price (in front of a Client I had brought) and mentioned the Green Fees quoted on the phone the week before. I was told the Assistant had obviously made a mistake as that was the rate when two or more holes were being worked on and in fact they only had large GUR areas on one hole that day, so list price was due. I was in no position to argue.  Again took 3 friends to a course where I'm a member and (with no prior warning) the greens were all an inch deep in sand.  Full guest fees please. Next day I called the secretary and he promised to discuss it at the next Board Meeting. My bad, I didn't follow this up.I can give of other examples but it seems now that only at the lesser known courses does the Pro offer a discount at their discretion.  At the 'expensive' end of the scale the fee is non negotiable, no matter what the state of the course. This is not a good business model going forward

Hi Scott thanks, I'd spotted that. Time to turn my attention to the moderator...
Let's make GCA grate again!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2022, 06:21:43 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2022, 06:38:50 PM »
Tony - what burns me is the practice of several top courses of making you pay 100% of the fee in advance with no refund at all if there are issues with the course, or covid, or any disruption whatsoever. Carnoustie is the worst offender.


I’ll never book another game at Carnoustie.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2022, 06:41:54 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Marty Bonnar

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2022, 06:59:04 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.


Ours went up 50 quid which is getting on for a 10% rise. Picture slightly confused by our 30 quid bar levy and the 15 quid to Scottish Golf. Total about £670 - yes, still peanuts compared to the US.
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2022, 07:01:43 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.
I know.  I'm a Canadian but I like to pretend that the British like us better.  There should be a lower "Commonwealth" rate for those of us who are still subjects of HRH's realm.

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #40 on: March 21, 2022, 07:17:43 PM »
Notwithstanding all the notable downsides, which do seem numerable.....

Still hard to be that critical when the yank model is "pound sand" when it comes to trying to access the notable privates in the US.

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #41 on: March 21, 2022, 07:21:58 PM »
The UK model has jumped the shank.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #42 on: March 21, 2022, 07:51:46 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.


Mike


I don't think so. I recall seeing stats from a few years ago that said with very few exceptions, the largest group of visitors at most UK courses are from the UK.


Niall

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #43 on: March 21, 2022, 07:52:06 PM »
Notwithstanding all the notable downsides, which do seem numerable.....

Still hard to be that critical when the yank model is "pound sand" when it comes to trying to access the notable privates in the US.
True, but some of these are essentially munis, not privately owned courses.

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #44 on: March 21, 2022, 07:54:18 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.


Mike


I don't think so. I recall seeing stats from a few years ago that said with very few exceptions, the largest group of visitors at most UK courses are from the UK.
Do visitors from the same nation typically pay the same guest fee?  Don't some of them have a deal where if you are a member of a club that belongs to the Scottish Golfing Union (or something like that) then you pay a much lower guest fee?

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2022, 04:07:14 AM »
Wayne


Down south they have something called a County Card that is available in some places. Sean Arble would be able to tell you how that works. In Scotland reciprocals are becoming more of a thing, probably because of the rise in green fees, but generally the greenfee is a flat rate irrespective of where you are from.


There are a few exceptions with Kingsbarns being the first course that I was aware of where they charged different rates depending on whether you came from Fife, Scotland, rest of the UK or elsewhere. I suspect Castle Stuart is the same and Dumbarnie certainly is, however most private clubs use a single rate.


Niall

Sean_A

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2022, 04:24:48 AM »
Wayne


Down south they have something called a County Card that is available in some places. Sean Arble would be able to tell you how that works. In Scotland reciprocals are becoming more of a thing, probably because of the rise in green fees, but generally the greenfee is a flat rate irrespective of where you are from.


There are a few exceptions with Kingsbarns being the first course that I was aware of where they charged different rates depending on whether you came from Fife, Scotland, rest of the UK or elsewhere. I suspect Castle Stuart is the same and Dumbarnie certainly is, however most private clubs use a single rate.


Niall

I think Wales and Ireland have similar discounts for being a member of their golf unions.

The Co Card is losing value. More restrictions in place these days and more clubs not taking the card.

Reciprocals seem to be on the rise. My club has added several new partners in the last few years including its first Scottish partner, Panmure. The list is impressive if you like to travel.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Thomas Dai

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2022, 07:19:34 AM »
Worth noting that reciprocals aren’t necessarily free. For example, the guest fee may have to be paid.
Still a nice reduction but of course you still need to be a member of a joint-reciprocating club to make use of such an arrangement and if you are you need to appreciate that players from the other club will be playing at your course too.
Reciprocals do seem to be becoming a more popular arrangement though.
The number of clubs operating within the English County Card scheme does seem to be declining or time of year restrictions are being imposed on usage and the gap between full-fee and CC-fee lessoning.
Atb
« Last Edit: March 22, 2022, 07:28:31 AM by Thomas Dai »

Mark Pearce

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2022, 01:55:00 PM »
Have membership dues gone up a lot as well or is this just a "Soak the Yanks" strategy since they know there will be a ton of demand from overseas this year?
Wayne - comps have increased a bit, but it’s primarily a “soak the visitor” policy. All visitors are not Yanks. Scandinavians and Japanese are also a big group. The Americans are the biggest group, but the others are significant.
At some clubs, I'm sure that's right.  At others, the desire to restrict visitor numbers is a genuine motivator.  One of the clubs I belong to has increased green fees in the hope, I understand, that it reduces demand, whilst keeping income up.  Since it's highly rated (and beloved here), I suspect the strategy will work.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Bill Gayne

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Re: OT - UK Summer 2022 Green Fees
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2022, 07:41:12 PM »
It's not just the green fees that are going up so are the flights, lodging, and rental cars. I don't think the caddies are getting a cost of living adjustment though.

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