Transition areas, unpinnable areas and othe changeable aspects of design intent

[Mike_Young]

While  routings, green complexes, fairway bunkering and water hazards are all stationary elements of a design, the architect also designs elements that can be moved in order to change a course but were not intended to be.  It's not uncommon for unknowing green committee spankers to have pins placed in transition areas and other unpinnable areas during tournaments or at times when they need to show how "tough" their course can play.  The same can be said for narrowing fairways.  This type of stuff really pisses me off and yet so many think it exemplifies the toughness of their course.  Will it ever change? 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,


No.


You mention pin areas.  One of my pet peeves is when it comes time to re-grass greens, no one thinks about the design and the grassing contractor tells them they don't need to "waste money" on an architect.


I have a half a dozen former 3 tiered greens out there that have been "re-grassed" into a long slope of 5-8% from back to front (or side to side, etc.)  I think I hate it, golfers hate it, supers hate it, etc. etc. etc.  Somehow, on the next project, they forget all of that and figure they don't need to bring in an architect, because that $12,000 fee would add $0.10 Per SF to the cost of rebuilding.  But it might save all $1Mil to rebuild them again before their time.


 


Also, none of those other things are considered permanent by many architects!

[Tommy Williamsen]

Mike, I have never belonged to a club where a green committee or chair decided where to put pins. It is always the super. Have you run into that very often?

[Paul Carey]

Mike, I have never belonged to a club where a green committee or chair decided where to put pins. It is always the super. Have you run into that very often?

I have been on a [size=78%]Green committee at three different clubs and chair at two.  We never got involved in setting pins and left that to the professionals (pro and superintendent).  I recall a number of times we asked that they do the opposite and make sure the pins were reasonable on events when they got the green speeds up.   [/size]

[Cal Carlisle]

-Mike


I’m not saying it never happens, but I’ve never seen a greens committee dictate where the pins go. A lot of supers play golf and know where an appropriate location for a cup is. For the ones that don’t (and they’re out there) they leave it to someone who does. That being said, they’re usually more concerned about older healing cups or high wear areas being in close proximity to a freshly cup cut.


Typically when you see cups in crazy spots it’s because the guy cutting the cups doesn’t really play golf.

[Mike_Young]

Sorry for not being more clear.  Yes, agree the supt usually sets pins.  I have seen it several times in member guest and other large club tourneys where pins get placed in transitional areas at the direction of the tournament committee... and sometimes you see the maintenance staff put pins in such areas.

[Bruce Katona]

One of my pet peeves is pins placed in an area that really is un-pinnable and the ball will either roll back to your feet or, if past the hole, off the green.


While 3 or more "compartments" to a green are not my favorite way of dividing up a large green area into 3 smaller greens, having greens roll at the speeds people prefer then these days requires a gentler slope of the ball will not come to rest.


Yes - there is Augusta & other brutes that like to brag about their green speeds, but that's not really where most golfers actually play.




That being said, we always liked to have a golf course that "looked hard, but played fair" so a customer could always brag up a bit about the score he/she posted to his friends, followed by a "Ohh - AHHH, you really shot  XX at that course?"


 The customer above was more than fine reaching a green in regulation and 3 putting for a bogey.....drive for show putt for $$ mentality.

[John Chilver-Stainer]

I wonder how many actual hole locations are available on Hole number 16 at ANGC when stimped at Masters readings?
I'm guessing outside the 4+1 during  competition week, not many.

[Thomas Dai]

Height of cut would seem to be something that has quite a significantly effect on what is or isn’t a pin-able location.
Atb

[Ben Malach]

Honestly, the most simple change that would improve golf for the most people is if ground crews and committees better-understood course setup.


I have played many very good courses, but due to the course setup being so routine that the interest in the golf holes was severely diminished. This is something that happens more often than not as a result of trying to standardize the game or in the worst case introduce a gimmick to an already perfectly fine golf hole.

[Mike_Young]

If a person, be it committee, maintenance staff or club prez, places a pin in an area not meant for a pin placement then it is a lack of respect for the course design.  It's no different than placing the pin in a bunker or the rough....transition areas are as much a part of a design as a fairway or bunker.  Latest TV example is the transition in 17 green at TPC.  JMO

[Ben Hollerbach]

If a person, be it committee, maintenance staff or club prez, places a pin in an area not meant for a pin placement then it is a lack of respect for the course design.  It's no different than placing the pin in a bunker or the rough....transition areas are as much a part of a design as a fairway or bunker.  Latest TV example is the transition in 17 green at TPC.  JMO

I'd imagine that during the construction process that time is spend with the superintendent where the architect's design intent is conveyed and subjects such as designed hole locations are covered. But what happens when the super asks someone else to cut the cups? Or what happens when the super leaves for another job? How is the architect's original intent carried forward and preserved through the evolution of the course?

Even then, as courses evolve and green speeds climb, what happens to a pin location specifically designed for a hole when the greens rolled at 6 now seems to be unputtable when the membership demands the greens at 12?

[John Chilver-Stainer]

 This bit of technology could provide a useful tool when opinions get divided.


https://ezlocator.com/

I'm not sure what the distances from each Hole positions are, or how different Stimp readings are taken into account.
 (I have never used and have nothing to do with this product)
 
 
 

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can't speak for many clubs but, according to our super, one of the holes at my course has only three pinnable locations. Some of the new wilder greens have many places that are unpinnable. When I played Baltusrol this autumn I was told that Hanse wanted 7 pinnable locations for every green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tommy,


I have seen systems of:


3 - (front-middle-back) although I think courses are forced into that more than want it
5 - (center and four corners) mostly at private clubs
6 - (front-middle-back on bot left and right) This works okay, except when a club is closed on Monday, where it tends to put the pin back in the same place every day for subsequent weeks.  Maybe that is why Gil wanted 7, and would be interested to see if he had a generalized diagram, maybe a combo of a middle pin and the 6 pin system?  Or maybe, he designs the green and lets the super figure it out.
9 - a true tic-tac-toe board for very busy public courses with very large greens.


In general, a "pin position" is an 8-10 foot diameter circle under 3% slope, maybe under 2.25% slope for others.


In general, cup locations take from 14-21 days to heal properly, with low play high budget clubs trending lower and high play low budget courses trending higher.  I suspect that even in a 6-7 day rotation, each of those would require at least 2 adjacent pin positions, or an area 8-10 by 16-20 feet.

[Jeff_Brauer]

 This bit of technology could provide a useful tool when opinions get divided.


https://ezlocator.com/

I'm not sure what the distances from each Hole positions are, or how different Stimp readings are taken into account.
 (I have never used and have nothing to do with this product)

John,


I have worked with them, and if you subscribe to their service, they have a customizable tool that takes stimp and even seasons into account.  For instance, here in TX, a 3.5% slope might work in summer, but not in winter when grass is dormant, so they can tweak the colors, etc. for season or even faster speeds for tournaments, etc.

[Rick Lane]

Club I am playing at is now using EZ locater, and it seems to me it still matters , as a poster said above, if the guy cutting the cups is a golfer.   While the software might instruct them to put a cup 22 on and 6 from the left, for instance, if the guy misses those two dimensions by 6 inches each, it may be a bad hole location.   We’ve noticed that a few times.   That said, it’s pretty cool software that I suppose does a good job of managing traffic areas on greens…

[Jeff_Brauer]

Yes, they use 3 foot circles, which is a bit tight.  I discussed it with them, but they feel like more positions is better.  I guess the cup setter still can use his eyeballs to decide if the location looks right or not.  And, the system does allow for different green speeds, i.e., their graph might show 32 summer pin positions that would work with speeds up to 12.5, and only 8 winter pin positions, which work with speeds up to 14-15.


It still takes the human touch.

[Bob Montle]

At my public course the owner is the culprit.
He believes in getting the greens as fast as he can, because that is what the "good" golfers want.  So he  rolls them two or three times a day and mows them daily also.
But what really makes us angry is the pin positions.He places them 8ft from the edge of the green on a slope - where an uphill putt can roll to the cup and then roll back about 20 ft.
A four ft sidehill putt, if missed, will also roll 20ft downhill.
When we complain he gets red in the face, says he doesn't want to discuss it, and tells us to golf somewhere else.
So
My group of about 25 seniors has moved.

[Jim Hoak]

Putting hole locations in absurd locations--or excessively narrowing the fairways--is part of the same attitude that has greens play unplayably fast in an effort to show how tough--and thereby good--a course is.  It is part of the silly, macho attitude of "my course is better than yours, because it's tougher."  I don't think it will change until Green Committees and club managements are required to all be women.

[David Ober]

At my public course the owner is the culprit.
He believes in getting the greens as fast as he can, because that is what the "good" golfers want.  So he  rolls them two or three times a day and mows them daily also.
But what really makes us angry is the pin positions.He places them 8ft from the edge of the green on a slope - where an uphill putt can roll to the cup and then roll back about 20 ft.
A four ft sidehill putt, if missed, will also roll 20ft downhill.
When we complain he gets red in the face, says he doesn't want to discuss it, and tells us to golf somewhere else.
So
My group of about 25 seniors has moved.

Good Lord, what course is this???