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mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« on: March 08, 2022, 10:11:44 AM »
I feel that we on this site should be careful not to get personal in our criticism of golf architecture.


 I realize that that line that gets crossed can be blurry at times.


  It is especially important to realize that we don’t know what happens between clubs and architects that limits their vision. 


  He thanks Jeff Brauer for telling us to give him a break about The Architects Club during its construction. I enjoy that course myself and think the Flynn hole captures his essence.


I love frank discussion but I should realize I may affect someone’s livelihood on here.

https://twitter.com/gcimagazineguy/status/1500947413988749315?s=21
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 03:15:57 PM by mike_malone »
AKA Mayday

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2022, 10:15:37 AM »
Dead men tell no tales.


Old dead men don't care if we hurt them.


You are correct about the living.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2022, 11:15:24 AM »
The Architect's Club is a very good golf course. I get that the idea behind it can be seen as schtick, but the actual course was done well. It manages to be a consistent whole even as it stylistically changes throughout the round. A lot of interesting shots and an enjoyable day out.


Sad that there are still scars.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2022, 11:30:52 AM »
Well, nobody wants to be on the hook for hurting someone else's career...BUT, if "Frank discussion" wasn't a founding pillar of this site it would never have become GCA.com as presently known.


This from a non-critic/commentator/rater/professional etc...

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2022, 12:12:04 PM »
You speed through Doakville you gonna get a ticket.

Robert Mercer Deruntz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2022, 12:54:26 PM »
For well over twenty years, he had so many plum opportunities and the results seemed to be the need for a different architect producing more popularly accepted work.  I know quite a few members at Sunningdale and Rockaway Hunt who are ecstatic with what DeVries and Hanse accomplished. 
I certainly am among his most vocal critics, but worked at a couple of clubs where the result of his work did not measure up to what occurred at Piping Rock, Creek, Inwood, Engineers, and Garden City CC, not to mention the other more famous club in Garden City.  Money could be used as an excuse, but GCCC and St. George's did their work on very tight budgets, and the results are great!
« Last Edit: March 08, 2022, 01:01:11 PM by Robert Mercer Deruntz »

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2022, 01:30:45 PM »
You speed through Doakville you gonna get a ticket.
Not sure that is fair. Knowing Tom, he is more likely to offer his feedback on why he agrees or disagrees with any criticism. Then, too, Tom and Jeff Brauer are probably the two leading contributors to this site that actually do golf architecture for a living.


We should appreciate that, IMO.
Tim Weiman

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2022, 02:10:03 PM »
You speed through Doakville you gonna get a ticket.
Not sure that is fair. Knowing Tom, he is more likely to offer his feedback on why he agrees or disagrees with any criticism. Then, too, Tom and Jeff Brauer are probably the two leading contributors to this site that actually do golf architecture for a living.


We should appreciate that, IMO.


And Brauer just retired his design arm to represent an architectural society that Doak has no interest in joining. Both guys have been overly generous to me which explains why when I play their courses I get a kick of wondering where the hell I am going to find the next tee. If I didn't consider them friends it would just piss me off. I'm sorry Stephan Kay got hurt, my Mom's middle name was Kay, but if you want love you better do the work.


Truth is, we all love celebrities who personally reach out to us and could piss on those who send surrogates to do their bidding.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2022, 02:15:21 PM »
Stephen Kay is a dear friend and has been an ardent supporter of mine for over a decade. I love Architects Club and Scotland Run and Macullough’s Emerald Links. I’d play MEGL 8 times out of 10 over the other courses in the area, in fact. I didn’t find much to like about Hamlet at Willow Creek.


I’ve told him all this to his face over a drink. Much of his restoration work seems to bridge between the mid-century look and the current post-modernist revival. A necessary step in a good direction.


I’ve found many of the public and offline comments about him to be in extreme distaste.
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Jim Hoak

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2022, 02:28:03 PM »
Mike, can you give us a little background on what happened and when?  I am totally ignorant on this subject.  Thanks.

Kevin_Reilly

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2022, 02:40:38 PM »
Jim,


Here is something from 13 years ago.  Today's thread seems like it would be more of a "Streisand effect" than anything else....there hasn't been much recent criticism that I can remember.


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,41873.0.html
"GOLF COURSES SHOULD BE ENJOYED RATHER THAN RATED" - Tom Watson

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2022, 03:25:24 PM »
I'm not sure what the specific criticism was either...

But having been on this site 15+ years now, I can't think of any architect, dead or alive, who has been spared from his fair share of criticism, second guessing, questioning, speculating, etc.....and that certainly applies to the Mayor of 'Doakville" as well.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2022, 05:07:40 PM »
I didn't recall the specific thread but it sounds like something I would defend, and want to thank Stephen for thanking me....


Without being architect specific, there probably could be a thread about the ethics (if any apply) to golf course criticism. 


I've always said the good news about Golf course architecture is that stands along with the other fine arts of architecture, landscape architecture, fine dining, theatre, etc. in being considered important enough to warrant its own critics, lists, rankings, and even coffee table books and monthly magazines.


The bad news is, if you have your own critics, you are likely to receive......criticism......and, lots of it. 


I know most of the gca's and they do vary widely on how well they take it.  I am generalizing here, but I think most wonder about the validity of the amateur architects found on various social media sites like this one, who really don't know what they are saying, but say it anyway.  If a Whitten or Klein says something wild, there can be consequences.  There really aren't for anyone posting here, unless they go so far over the top that some architect or contractor gets made enough to file a lawsuit.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #13 on: March 08, 2022, 05:53:46 PM »
Did he just pull a Russell Westbrook?


Is there a link to the podcast?

Mike Hendren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #14 on: March 08, 2022, 08:03:43 PM »
Pascuzzo, Rees and “The Faz” say hold my beer. 


Mike
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #15 on: March 08, 2022, 09:57:21 PM »
I haven't listened to the podcast yet but I did hear a 2 minute clip in which he said it was impossible to get clubs to cut down trees in the 1990s and it wasn't until Oakmont and Winged Foot did it that it became okay.


I don't know of any clubs he worked on regarding restoration work but it wasn't until Doak, Hanse and Coore and a few others started doing faithful restorations that the renaissance began.  The fact is there was a lot of bad work by ASGCA architects that is now being exposed and its refreshing he's trying to be truthful about it. 

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #16 on: March 09, 2022, 01:22:13 AM »
You speed through Doakville you gonna get a ticket.
Not sure that is fair. Knowing Tom, he is more likely to offer his feedback on why he agrees or disagrees with any criticism. Then, too, Tom and Jeff Brauer are probably the two leading contributors to this site that actually do golf architecture for a living.


We should appreciate that, IMO.


And Brauer just retired his design arm to represent an architectural society that Doak has no interest in joining. Both guys have been overly generous to me which explains why when I play their courses I get a kick of wondering where the hell I am going to find the next tee. If I didn't consider them friends it would just piss me off. I'm sorry Stephan Kay got hurt, my Mom's middle name was Kay, but if you want love you better do the work.


Truth is, we all love celebrities who personally reach out to us and could piss on those who send surrogates to do their bidding.
The only celebrity who ever reached out to me was Muhammad Ali. Yeah, I guess it was fun.
Tim Weiman

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2022, 06:21:19 AM »
All timer from Stephen in class:


“Okay guys, we can do strategic tree use or bunker construction today… actually we’ll do both. First the trees. Cut the fucking thing down!


Now, to drain a bunker…”
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Richard Hetzel

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #18 on: March 09, 2022, 07:23:26 AM »
I love Architects Club and Scotland Run and Macullough’s Emerald Links. I’d play MEGL 8 times out of 10 over the other courses in the area, in fact.



I too enjoyed MEL! That was a fun golf course. I need to still play Architects however.
Best Played So Far This Season:
Crystal Downs CC (MI), The Bridge (NY), Canterbury GC (OH), Lakota Links (CO), Montauk Downs (NY), Sedge Valley (WI)

Joe Bausch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2022, 07:39:47 AM »
Two of my highlights last year was playing golf w/ Stephen.

First was at Scotland Run and I think GCAer Mike Trenham was along as well.  It was a pleasure hearing his thoughts on the course now that it is many years since it opened.

Here is a hole-by-hole photo tour of the course from that day in August of 2021:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/ScotlandRun_2021/index.html

Later that season it was just me and Stephen playing early in the morning at Blue Heron Pines.  I thoroughly enjoyed the round and hearing about how he came to be hired for that course.

Here is a hole-by-hole tour of BHP from that day in September of 2021:

http://www80.homepage.villanova.edu/joseph.bausch/images/albums/BlueHeronPines_2021/index.html

Both SR and BHP are good golf courses.



@jwbausch (for new photo albums)
The site for the Cobb's Creek project:  https://cobbscreek.org/
Nearly all Delaware Valley golf courses in photo albums: Bausch Collection

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2022, 09:32:19 AM »
I haven't listened to the podcast yet but I did hear a 2 minute clip in which he said it was impossible to get clubs to cut down trees in the 1990s and it wasn't until Oakmont and Winged Foot did it that it became okay.


I don't know of any clubs he worked on regarding restoration work but it wasn't until Doak, Hanse and Coore and a few others started doing faithful restorations that the renaissance began.  The fact is there was a lot of bad work by ASGCA architects that is now being exposed and its refreshing he's trying to be truthful about it.


Two of those three are long time ASGCA members, and the third is......well, Tom Doak! ;)


I will also say that you, like so many others in the age of social media often believe that opinion and fact are typically seen as interchangeable words.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2022, 10:46:37 AM »
Did he just pull a Russell Westbrook?


Is there a link to the podcast?


I added the link to the initial post.
AKA Mayday

Stewart Abramson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2022, 03:46:06 PM »

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2022, 04:45:06 PM »
Stewart’s photos reminded me of the fact that Architect’s 10th seems all wrong. The green is at the wrong angle to the fairway. If you go wide left of the fairway bunker you have an awful angle to the green. I think you need to play the hole as a cross bunker, either go over the right side of the fairway bunker if you can or lay up short of it. There is no strategic reason to do anything else. Strategy for the rest of the course works well.

MCirba

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Just listened to Stephen Kay podcast. We hurt that guy.
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2022, 06:27:46 PM »
I need to get back to Architects this year.

My one play way back when left me with the impression that the earliest holes were a bit too rudimentary and made it appear that golf course architecture actually improved through the 60's, 70s, 80's etc. with the Wilson and Jones holes being among the best on the course.   Still and all, many of the holes were very well done and I think the Travis reproduction was pretty exceptional.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/