Are 18th Holes More Difficult to Design?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Two semi related points, but yes the CH is often sited first, and that is usually set by proximity to utilities.  You see a lot of Ross courses with the clubhouse in the corner of the site, and usually nearest where the city was.  He was frugal, and back then, many country clubs truly were in the country and had to consider where the utilities were closest.  It is still true.  I was co-designer on a course once (never built) and the consultant wanted to put the clubhouse on the east side for the best sun orientation, but the cost of running roads and utilities to that ideal site was going to triple the cost of the project, so it was quickly scotched.


Since 2000, some progressive land planners have gotten away from the ideas of putting the clubhouse on the most prominent hill on a residential golf community.  The reasoning includes, 1) Saving those views for premium residential lots, and 2) It is often far less expensive to create clubhouse views from the clubhouse by landscaping the first few holes and/or range.


Architects may have gotten too set in their ways about running the 18th right at the clubhouse for the traditional finishing hole look.  That is good for circulation in most cases, but it is sometimes possible to consider the old NGLA trick of sliding the 18th by the clubhouse, not running it right up to it.  In modern golf, having a distant 18th green or 1st tee is okay, in that the associated travel time before and after the rounds aren't usually counted in the 4 hour pace of play equation.  Those are both much better than having some long distance between two holes from 2-17.

[mike_malone]

We are blessed at Rolling Green to have #1 and #10 going uphill even though #9 and # 18 are uphill. That’s rather unique in my experience.
We had a different #18 routed a year earlier that was straight up the hill. Thankfully Flynn ended up with the downhill reverse camber tee shot that doglegs right up the hill.

[Tim_Weiman]

Two semi related points, but yes the CH is often sited first, and that is usually set by proximity to utilities.  You see a lot of Ross courses with the clubhouse in the corner of the site, and usually nearest where the city was.  He was frugal, and back then, many country clubs truly were in the country and had to consider where the utilities were closest.  It is still true.  I was co-designer on a course once (never built) and the consultant wanted to put the clubhouse on the east side for the best sun orientation, but the cost of running roads and utilities to that ideal site was going to triple the cost of the project, so it was quickly scotched.


Since 2000, some progressive land planners have gotten away from the ideas of putting the clubhouse on the most prominent hill on a residential golf community.  The reasoning includes, 1) Saving those views for premium residential lots, and 2) It is often far less expensive to create clubhouse views from the clubhouse by landscaping the first few holes and/or range.


Architects may have gotten too set in their ways about running the 18th right at the clubhouse for the traditional finishing hole look.  That is good for circulation in most cases, but it is sometimes possible to consider the old NGLA trick of sliding the 18th by the clubhouse, not running it right up to it.  In modern golf, having a distant 18th green or 1st tee is okay, in that the associated travel time before and after the rounds aren't usually counted in the 4 hour pace of play equation.  Those are both much better than having some long distance between two holes from 2-17.

Jeff,


I think the NGLA clubhouse location and layout of the 18th hole are great, but thought we all agreed in a thread not too long ago that the routing of the golf course was done before construction of the current clubhouse and that it was a fire in the original clubhouse building that led to the change.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,


I was aware of that but thought the idea of sliding by the clubhouse is underused to keep the 18th from marching straight up some hill.  I think it is PGA West where the clubhouse actually sits mid range, so you can go to either practice tee, with the starting and finishing holes that much further from the clubhouse, but I can't recall to many other non-traditional clubhouse arrangements off the top of my head.


I have gotten into a few arguments on the idea that the clubhouse should overlook the 18th green so diners can watch them putt out.  Golf holes are designed to be viewed from the tee forward, and I always preferred locating the clubhouse with a view down 1 or 10 fw.  It seems many owners used the "watch them finish" argument somehow believing that there will be a major tournament at their course some day.  Even if there was, the bleachers would probably block the clubhouse view, so why do it?


So, just some random thoughts on detailed clubhouse location.

[Tommy Williamsen]

Maybe we get to used to the idea of 18 finishing at the clubhouse. It is not ideal but 18 at Harbour Town finishes along Calibogue sound not at the clubhouse. 18 at Ballybunion changed when they relocated the clubhouse. 

[Jeff Schley]

Two semi related points, but yes the CH is often sited first, and that is usually set by proximity to utilities.  You see a lot of Ross courses with the clubhouse in the corner of the site, and usually nearest where the city was.  He was frugal, and back then, many country clubs truly were in the country and had to consider where the utilities were closest.  It is still true.  I was co-designer on a course once (never built) and the consultant wanted to put the clubhouse on the east side for the best sun orientation, but the cost of running roads and utilities to that ideal site was going to triple the cost of the project, so it was quickly scotched.


Since 2000, some progressive land planners have gotten away from the ideas of putting the clubhouse on the most prominent hill on a residential golf community.  The reasoning includes, 1) Saving those views for premium residential lots, and 2) It is often far less expensive to create clubhouse views from the clubhouse by landscaping the first few holes and/or range.


Architects may have gotten too set in their ways about running the 18th right at the clubhouse for the traditional finishing hole look.  That is good for circulation in most cases, but it is sometimes possible to consider the old NGLA trick of sliding the 18th by the clubhouse, not running it right up to it.  In modern golf, having a distant 18th green or 1st tee is okay, in that the associated travel time before and after the rounds aren't usually counted in the 4 hour pace of play equation.  Those are both much better than having some long distance between two holes from 2-17.

Jeff thank you for this detail, which without those of us with experience in golf course construction wouldn't realize what goes into it. I'm building a house myself right now and did exactly what you said in locating my utilities in strategic positions to cut down on the run to the house. Makes sense to do so.
Personally I really like the 18th green being close to the clubhouse with a view of it. A real nice one is Royal Golf Club in Bahrain which allows for great views. You mentioned PGA West which gives you both the 9th and 18 of the Nicklaus Tourney course from the clubhouse in a picturesque setting. A couple of the Dubai courses do they as well. I rather enjoy watching some play into the last hole. Only better option is if it is seaside, then views of the ocean, think Barnbougle Lost Farm restaurant.

[Tim_Weiman]

Maybe we get to used to the idea of 18 finishing at the clubhouse. It is not ideal but 18 at Harbour Town finishes along Calibogue sound not at the clubhouse. 18 at Ballybunion changed when they relocated the clubhouse.

The original layout for Ballybunion had the 1st tee and the 18th green close to town. That was the set up for the 2000 Irish Open.

[Tim_Weiman]

Tim,


I was aware of that but thought the idea of sliding by the clubhouse is underused to keep the 18th from marching straight up some hill.  I think it is PGA West where the clubhouse actually sits mid range, so you can go to either practice tee, with the starting and finishing holes that much further from the clubhouse, but I can't recall to many other non-traditional clubhouse arrangements off the top of my head.


I have gotten into a few arguments on the idea that the clubhouse should overlook the 18th green so diners can watch them putt out.  Golf holes are designed to be viewed from the tee forward, and I always preferred locating the clubhouse with a view down 1 or 10 fw.  It seems many owners used the "watch them finish" argument somehow believing that there will be a major tournament at their course some day.  Even if there was, the bleachers would probably block the clubhouse view, so why do it?


So, just some random thoughts on detailed clubhouse location.

Jeff,


Interesting post. Thanks!

[Jeff Schley]

Maybe we get to used to the idea of 18 finishing at the clubhouse. It is not ideal but 18 at Harbour Town finishes along Calibogue sound not at the clubhouse. 18 at Ballybunion changed when they relocated the clubhouse.

The original layout for Ballybunion had the 1st tee and the 18th green close to town. That was the set up for the 2000 Irish Open.

Tim interesting. I didn't know this.  Anyone have a layout?

[Ira Fishman]

Until the discussion about the clubhouse as a constraint, I had not really thought about the high percentage of my favorites that do not have the 9th hole return to the clubhouse. And I am not even including out and back links courses.


Ira

[Ally Mcintosh]

Maybe we get to used to the idea of 18 finishing at the clubhouse. It is not ideal but 18 at Harbour Town finishes along Calibogue sound not at the clubhouse. 18 at Ballybunion changed when they relocated the clubhouse.

The original layout for Ballybunion had the 1st tee and the 18th green close to town. That was the set up for the 2000 Irish Open.

Tim interesting. I didn't know this.  Anyone have a layout?

Jeff, it was the same routing as today but the current 6th was the 1st and the current 5th was the 18th. The old clubhouse was positioned there too

[Jeff Schley]

Maybe we get to used to the idea of 18 finishing at the clubhouse. It is not ideal but 18 at Harbour Town finishes along Calibogue sound not at the clubhouse. 18 at Ballybunion changed when they relocated the clubhouse.

The original layout for Ballybunion had the 1st tee and the 18th green close to town. That was the set up for the 2000 Irish Open.

Tim interesting. I didn't know this.  Anyone have a layout?

Jeff, it was the same routing as today but the current 6th was the 1st and the current 5th was the 18th. The old clubhouse was positioned there too

Gotcha... thanks Ally. IIRC is that the little shack off the road that is still there?  If so that is tiny, I thought it was just a pro shop/starter shack.

[Sven Nilsen]

Jeff,


I think the NGLA clubhouse location and layout of the 18th hole are great, but thought we all agreed in a thread not too long ago that the routing of the golf course was done before construction of the current clubhouse and that it was a fire in the original clubhouse building that led to the change.

"We" didn't all agree.  The original clubhouse for the course (located on the south end of the property) was only temporary.  No one knows for sure, but there is the thought that CBM conceived of locating the clubhouse where it is today when the course was being built knowing it would be constructed later.  There were also plans for other buildings and "club" related development to take place on the northern end of the property.  The fire might have moved up that time table.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

One additional factor that adds to the difficulty of designing a good 18th holes lies in other routing concerns. 


At The Sheep Ranch, there were two routes to get back to the clubhouse at the end of the round, the uphill par 5 11th and the 18th.  Many would argue that the 11th feels like a more fitting closing hole.  The thought of keeping the promontory green of the 16th late in the rounds as a bit of a climax, combined with the rest of the tight layout, would have made it very difficult to get to the 11th as a closer.  Thus the 18th as it is, an undersized short par 5 (435 from the Green tees). 


Whether the 18th should really be a par 4 is a different question.


Sven

[Michael Felton]

Architects may have gotten too set in their ways about running the 18th right at the clubhouse for the traditional finishing hole look.  That is good for circulation in most cases, but it is sometimes possible to consider the old NGLA trick of sliding the 18th by the clubhouse, not running it right up to it.  In modern golf, having a distant 18th green or 1st tee is okay, in that the associated travel time before and after the rounds aren't usually counted in the 4 hour pace of play equation.  Those are both much better than having some long distance between two holes from 2-17.

Rye is like this too I think. Not quite to the same extent perhaps.


Side note - in some ways I could see the 18th being one of the easiest holes to design. Perhaps hardest to design well, but the restrictiveness would make a lot of the job already done. I imagine that there has to be a little bit of luck involved in having good land near the clubhouse.


Then again, if you look at Winged Foot, on the 18th side of the clubhouse, you've basically got 1, 9, 10, 18 on the West and 11 and 18 on the East all squeezed right next to each other. But they all work and on the odd occasion I've been lucky enough to play there I've never felt like they were encroaching on each other. I wonder how much each was adjusted while routing it.

[Adam Lawrence]

Architects may have gotten too set in their ways about running the 18th right at the clubhouse for the traditional finishing hole look.  That is good for circulation in most cases, but it is sometimes possible to consider the old NGLA trick of sliding the 18th by the clubhouse, not running it right up to it.  In modern golf, having a distant 18th green or 1st tee is okay, in that the associated travel time before and after the rounds aren't usually counted in the 4 hour pace of play equation.  Those are both much better than having some long distance between two holes from 2-17.

Rye is like this too I think. Not quite to the same extent perhaps.

Yeah, that's why the window of the secretary's office has to be specially toughened glass 


One of the other interesting things about the clubhouse location at Rye is that is gives A LOT of potential starting points. I once played there over Christmas. We had a tee time booking at about 10am and turned up shortly after nine to find a frost delay and the clubhouse absolutely heaving. I said to the secretary (James Laidler at the time) that it was going to take forever for all those members to get out once the frost delay ended, he said 'No, they'll be off in no time once I open the course'.


And he was right. He removed the frost delay sign, and within ten minutes the clubhouse was empty. After fifteen minutes, we went to the first tee and it was empty; there was a group just leaving the green. The members had disappeared to different holes to start their round, effectively an informal shotgun start. And why? The answer became clear when we got back shortly after 1pm -- because they all wanted to be back for lunch!

[Tim_Weiman]

Jeff,


I think the NGLA clubhouse location and layout of the 18th hole are great, but thought we all agreed in a thread not too long ago that the routing of the golf course was done before construction of the current clubhouse and that it was a fire in the original clubhouse building that led to the change.

"We" didn't all agree.  The original clubhouse for the course (located on the south end of the property) was only temporary.  No one knows for sure, but there is the thought that CBM conceived of locating the clubhouse where it is today when the course was being built knowing it would be constructed later.  There were also plans for other buildings and "club" related development to take place on the northern end of the property.  The fire might have moved up that time table.


Sven

Sven,


I guess what “we” can say is things turned out very nicely.


Whether CBM conceived of the current clubhouse site right from beginning, I certainly don’t know. I don’t recall any mention of that in Scotland’s Gift.

[Mike Bodo]

Weren't the 18th holes on most routings during in the Golden Era and prior anti-climactic for the primary reason most matches never made it to the 18th hole and stroke play wasn't as popular? It seems as though on most golden era courses I've played the 18th holes are not all that memorable compared to say holes 15 - 17, but that could also be in part to what Ali said about the last hole having to end near or at a specific point and where that may not be the ideal or best location for a signature hole.


On a side note, was the primary reason the nines were switched at ANGC because the original 18th (now the 9th), wasn't considered as dramatic or as demanding a finishing hole as the current 18th?

[Tim Martin]

Yale 18 is one of the boldest and most unique finishers in golf. You have an array of opinions which are often tied to the way someone played/scored on the hole. Those that don’t have the ability to remember all the holes after one play will not forget it.

[Mike Bodo]

Yale 18 is one of the boldest and most unique finishers in golf. You have an array of opinions which are often tied to the way someone played/scored on the hole. Those that don’t have the ability to remember all the holes after one play will not forget it.

I need to get out to Yale while my sister is still taking classes there and I can get on through her. LOL! Problem is I don't want to play there until Gil has performed his magic on it.