Green speeds are hurting the game

[Sean_A]

Would anyone care to put this issue into context ? For instance is this just a first world problem ie. high end US clubs, or is it a universal problem ? For instance from what I can see your average UK members club isn't digging up there greens to make them more receptive to higher green speeds.

Niall

I know of only one case of a UK green changed because of green speeds... 16 at Kington. That had to be 15 years ago and it was the right thing to do, but the work went too far. I know of some examples of green changes to accommodate more hole locations which in every case was bullshit.

With the continuing improvement of Cleeve Hill's greens I am fearful a few of the outlandish examples may go under the knife. 😬 I don't think a few of those greens work at 9-10 which is my general "ideal" speed. In a case like this I would keep the greens and figure out the max speed as a baseline for course...unless a clever archie came in and redesigned the greens to make them interesting and able to cope with 9-10 speed.

 Ciao

[Richard Hetzel]

Personally, I love fast greens. May not be good for maintenance but I hate slow greens. They don't have to be US Open fast, but you get my point.

Do you favor softening greens to permit faster speeds?

Soften the contours? Absolutely NOT. I like greens with character. On the flip side of this topic, I believe that lengthening golf courses hurts the game more than creating faster greens. I think it's an easier go for a player to adapt to putting on difficult greens than to find an extra 600-900 yards in their swing.

[David Ober]

Just to make sure this continues as a conversation I’ll say…I sure do hate when a ball grinds to a halt on the way down a 5% slope!

Not sure if that's facetious or not, Jim, but I absolutely hate when our course's greens get so slow that one has absolutely no fear on short, downhill sliders. Our greens have tons of slope/pitch and they are a blast to play when at about 11. When they are 9.5, they are not challenging enough for as short as the course plays.


IMHO, of course.

David,


Is there any problem keeping your greens at 11? If so, do you know what percent of the time it can be done?

No trouble at all, Tim -- from November through March, at least. Once the weather warms up, we keep them 9.5ish and true -- and that's totally fine. But in the cooler months, we can easily them to 11.5 to 12 and keep them there for 5 to 6 months.

[David Ober]

Not facetious at all…my part about continuing it as a conversation (as opposed to a cheering brigade) was simply to play devils advocate. As you know, the vast majority on here would rather putt through the rough than tweak a green.


Good firm fast greens are the ultimate sign of skilled management in my opinion…


Tom Paul had a great solution/recommendation; go to the most severe green and determine it’s maximum playable speed and use that as a target across the board.

Love that. At our club, that's 11.5 to 12, max.

That's too fast for a lot of clubs and I think unrealistic to maintain with rain, humidity, etc in most of the country. Greens Super has to be the hardest job in golf. Impossible to keep everyone happy. Impossible.

Yes, and I said as much in my original post. November to March/mid-April: 11.5 to 12. After that, we need to begin the inexorable slide to 9.5 and soft because summer temps can reach 110+ here in Inland SoCal...

[Richard Hetzel]

PS: I have not played Oakmont (yet), so when when I do (I wish), I'll probably change my tune, maybe.

[Tim_Weiman]

Just to make sure this continues as a conversation I’ll say…I sure do hate when a ball grinds to a halt on the way down a 5% slope!

Not sure if that's facetious or not, Jim, but I absolutely hate when our course's greens get so slow that one has absolutely no fear on short, downhill sliders. Our greens have tons of slope/pitch and they are a blast to play when at about 11. When they are 9.5, they are not challenging enough for as short as the course plays.


IMHO, of course.

David,


Is there any problem keeping your greens at 11? If so, do you know what percent of the time it can be done?

No trouble at all, Tim -- from November through March, at least. Once the weather warms up, we keep them 9.5ish and true -- and that's totally fine. But in the cooler months, we can easily them to 11.5 to 12 and keep them there for 5 to 6 months.

David,


Thanks. Sounds pretty good to me. My main thing is just I hate the idea of softening contour.

[Doug Bolls]

If I have my choice between flat, fast greens and contoured slower greens, I'm voting for contour and slow them down a bit.  Part of the fun in golf for me is trying to figure out the line - where do I have to hit the ball to get it close to or into the hole. 


Flat and fast is not particularly interesting.


Contoured and fast is very difficult - I don't like to putt the ball past the hole and off the green because of the fast green speed.


More contour and a little slower - that's my vote.

[jeffwarne]

I disagree.  I want the greens fast and firm.  Super fast, super firm.

relative word.To some,11 is fast, other places that number is 14.


I like fast putts-not fast greens.
A fast green(14-15) is generally lacking in contour to be playable.
a green stimping at 8 can produce lightning fast putts if enough contour exists.




If all putts are fast, you're dealing with minimal contour, and minimal skill and judgement is required.


A 5% slope could present lightning fast putt downhill, that is barely nudged to go 30 feet, yet the same 30 footer might require a 3 fot long backswing coming back up that 55 slope.


If I had to pick fast OR firm, I'd take firm every time, and often the "fast" reduces the firm.

[Tim_Weiman]

I disagree.  I want the greens fast and firm.  Super fast, super firm.

relative word.To some,11 is fast, other places that number is 14.


I like fast putts-not fast greens.
A fast green(14-15) is generally lacking in contour to be playable.
a green stimping at 8 can produce lightning fast putts if enough contour exists.




If all putts are fast, you're dealing with minimal contour, and minimal skill and judgement is required.


A 5% slope could present lightning fast putt downhill, that is barely nudged to go 30 feet, yet the same 30 footer might require a 3 fot long backswing coming back up that 55 slope.


If I had to pick fast OR firm, I'd take firm every time, and often the "fast" reduces the firm.

Jeff,


I agree with your comments. Along those lines, a while back (if I am not mistaken) Pine Valley softened the 5th green. I never understood the need for that. Sure, no way one would want a downhill putt on that green, but really how many golfers would have that putt?


I don’t recall many during even the Walker Cup.


I’d be curious if anyone familiar with this specific example of contour softening can explain what the club was thinking.