Is the "Bear Trap" the three worst contiguous golf holes on the planet?

[MCirba]

Yeah, people like to watch the pros dunk their balls in the water.   It makes us feel better about our own games, I suppose.

But from a purely architectural interest and strategic options standpoint, I can't think of any worse, anywhere.   How about you?

[Ed Brzezowski]

Wow,  I was thinking the exact same thing on Saturday Mike.

[Buck Wolter]

There was an interview with Jack this weekend where they asked him about the course. He was almost apologetic and said it's probably too hard but he was working with someone else's routing and there was very little he could do to 'fix 'it'. Seemed he was distancing himself from it as much as he could.

[Jerry Kluger]

I wonder how often the members want to play the course when they have others to choose from.  We have a course in my area called 12 Oaks which is affectionally known as "12 Balls" because of all of the forced carries over wetlands - played with a 12 Oaks member at another course and he was a decent player and he was playing Pinnacles which is said he does because he loses so many balls at 12 Oaks. I guess I would be a frequent customer at the local used golf ball shop if I was playing PGA on a regular basis.

[Jim Sherma]

The Bear Trap is an example of the type of architecture/conditions needed to contain the modern pro game. They certainly were not tearing it up and getting to 20-under. Having landing areas that are smaller then the expected dispersion pattern makes for the types of scores that we saw this weekend. The only way to keep scores up is to punish near misses/unfortunate dispersion with either water, deep rough or OB, preferably with greens that are very sloped and rock hard. These guys are so good with their recovery shots I am not sure that bunkering or short grass is any real concern for them.


It is not a course that I have any interest in playing.

[Buck Wolter]

The Bear Trap is an example of the type of architecture/conditions needed to contain the modern pro game. They certainly were not tearing it up and getting to 20-under. Having landing areas that are smaller then the expected dispersion pattern makes for the types of scores that we saw this weekend. The only way to keep scores up is to punish near misses/unfortunate dispersion with either water, deep rough or OB, preferably with greens that are very sloped and rock hard. These guys are so good with their recovery shots I am not sure that bunkering or short grass is any real concern for them.


It is not a course that I have any interest in playing.

Why do we care about containing the pros? This course isn't even going to be used for this tournament going forward.

[MCirba]

Jim Sherma,

I played there so you don't need to.   

Somehow, I only lost one ball through that stretch but wouldn't want to try again.

[Niall C]

Jim


But why do you want to keep scores up ? If we could just dispense with the notion that the winning/average score needs to be a certain number then there wouldn't be a need for this type of architecture.


Niall

[Jim Sherma]

The Bear Trap is an example of the type of architecture/conditions needed to contain the modern pro game. They certainly were not tearing it up and getting to 20-under. Having landing areas that are smaller then the expected dispersion pattern makes for the types of scores that we saw this weekend. The only way to keep scores up is to punish near misses/unfortunate dispersion with either water, deep rough or OB, preferably with greens that are very sloped and rock hard. These guys are so good with their recovery shots I am not sure that bunkering or short grass is any real concern for them.


It is not a course that I have any interest in playing.

Why do we care about containing the pros? This course isn't even going to be used for this tournament going forward.

I don't care at all about containing the pros. Given all of the conversations about the pro's beating up Riviera and other courses that we like I was simply pointing out what type of course and shot requirements are required for scores that are not 15-25 under. As I said, I have no interest in this course and do not consider it good architecture for me. It is built to purpose however and can be said to be successful architecture for those that do care about the scores that the pro tour shoots on a given course. 

[Matt_Cohn]

Why do we care about containing the pros? This course isn't even going to be used for this tournament going forward.

It’s not?!?

[Dave Doxey]

Watching the Honda does make for a great drinking game.  How many times do you think the announcers mentioned "Bear Trap"?

[Kalen Braley]

Why do we care about containing the pros? This course isn't even going to be used for this tournament going forward.

It’s not?!?

Yea not sure what he means by this.  Just read an article where the Event Organizers are going to go even bigger in upcoming years.  Perhaps it'll be a TPC Scottsdale 2.0, complete with mandatory hard hats and beer showers....

P.S.  I agree with Mike, as much as I forced myself to try to watch this yesterday, with a tight leaderboard and all, it was just painful.  Who ended up winning?

[JohnVDB]

I don't care at all about containing the pros. Given all of the conversations about the pro's beating up Riviera and other courses that we like I was simply pointing out what type of course and shot requirements are required for scores that are not 15-25 under. As I said, I have no interest in this course and do not consider it good architecture for me. It is built to purpose however and can be said to be successful architecture for those that do care about the scores that the pro tour shoots on a given course.

I saw a tweet yesterday that the average score at Riviera was within about a tenth of a stroke with the average score at PGA National over the last 15 years.  The difference is that par is one stroke higher at Riv so relative to par it looks easier. But when you consider that #1 at Riv is a par 4 for those guys, they really are very equal in difficulty.  The major difference is the huge number of strokes that are penalty strokes at Honda.  That says to me that Riviera is a much more difficult and interesting course.

[Buck Wolter]

Why do we care about containing the pros? This course isn't even going to be used for this tournament going forward.

It’s not?!?

Yea not sure what he means by this.  Just read an article where the Event Organizers are going to go even bigger in upcoming years.  Perhaps it'll be a TPC Scottsdale 2.0, complete with mandatory hard hats and beer showers....

P.S.  I agree with Mike, as much as I forced myself to try to watch this yesterday, with a tight leaderboard and all, it was just painful.  Who ended up winning?

I heard on a podcast it was moving -- sounded like a well-sourced rumor at least (it's possible it was a different tournament as I wasn't paying that much attention)

[Ronald Montesano]

I see nothing in the news feed about a new venue for Honda Classic in 2023, unless they are going to Cabot Citrus Farms

[Michael Dugger]

'tis typical water hazard golf, which is far more interesting to watch when the good players are going at it.

[Craig Sweet]

I'd much rather watch 15..16...17 at Augusta

[Peter Sayegh]

Mike C,
did you find any "architectural interest" on any hole on the course? I know you enjoy finding a good feature or hole when you play.

One of the reasons I no longer watch non-majors is hearing the announcer (Dan Hicks?) insist that the Bear Trap is "among the greatest stretch in golf/where champions are born/best ever designed."

[MCirba]

Mike C,
did you find any "architectural interest" on any hole on the course? I know you enjoy finding a good feature or hole when you play.

One of the reasons I no longer watch non-majors is hearing the announcer (Dan Hicks?) insist that the Bear Trap is "among the greatest stretch in golf/where champions are born/best ever designed."

The first hole on the PGA National "Champions" course is infinitely superior to the 1st hole on the PGA National "Fazio" course, which is arguably the worst starting hole I've ever seen, with the possible exception of Mount Airy Lodge in the Poconos.

[Kevin Stark]

I was out there Thursday. They had 15 set up at about 150 yards and 17 at about 165 that day, if memory serves. The wind made it super difficult for the pros; it really surprised me how much they struggled with such short holes because of the wind. If it weren't windy on a regular basis those holes would be fine but it's windy more often than not there and I think that's what makes those holes, uh, sub-optimal. From all the way back in a stiff wind they both would be about impossible.


The hole I really didn't like out of the bunch was 16. Every pro played a distance off the tee where it put them about even with the front of the left bunker when in the fairway, such that if they pulled the shot they would have been just short of that bunker. There appeared to be no reward for hitting driver and getting down farther for a shorter shot into the green. The temptation was completely absent. Maybe widening that landing zone a bit and/or shifting it closer to the green would help. (The angle of the fairway is such that a longer tee shot doesn't equate to a significantly shorter approach shot.)

[cary lichtenstein]

Those 3 holes gave me a reason for watching the tournament on Sunday and it turns out that the downpour on 18 decided the tournament, not those 3 holes.

[Brad Lawrence]

Literally the worst?  Not even close.  Most of the courses I play… pick any three and they’re worse.  That style isn’t my thing but at least they stand out in a world where most holes feel like the same unimaginative boredom that is crammed down our throats.

[Andrew Harvie]

It's incredibly boring to play on Trackman. Not sure I'd spend 4+ hours of my time to go see it in person

[Matthew Rose]

15 and 17 are too similar IMO..... not sure what you could do to give them more variety save for somehow putting water left instead of right, but it just feels like deja vu.

[V. Kmetz]

I wonder how often the members want to play the course when they have others to choose from.  We have a course in my area called 12 Oaks which is affectionally known as "12 Balls" because of all of the forced carries over wetlands - played with a 12 Oaks member at another course and he was a decent player and he was playing Pinnacles which is said he does because he loses so many balls at 12 Oaks. I guess I would be a frequent customer at the local used golf ball shop if I was playing PGA on a regular basis.

Twelve Oaks?  Isn't that the Wilkes' place?