OT - "Is an Overseas Membership for You?"

[David_Tepper]

https://www.linksmagazine.com/overseas-membership/?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=insider2.27.22

[John Emerson]

Many of these overseas memberships are worth every penny if one goes just once.  Like the article mentioned, having a membership at a club and hunkering down close to said club and playing multiple rounds during a 5-7 day trip will pay for itself.  Most all clubs have heavily discounted reciprocal deals with other surrounding clubs as well.  It’s is win-win for everyone.

[David_Tepper]

In addition, most GB&I clubs grant members (both local and overseas) a certain number of "guest of member" rounds per year, typically between 8 and 12.


If you are at your club and a friend comes to visit (who is not a member), your friend can play with you at the "guest of member" green fee rate, which can be anywhere from 10% to 25% of the standard visitor green fee. If the visitor green fee might be 80-100 pounds, the "guest of member" green fee might be 15 to 20 pounds. That is a nice perk for sure.   

[Ally Mcintosh]

David,


It actually surprised me recently when I found out some clubs have a limit on guest numbers (e.g. 12 as you mention).


Any clubs I am associated with - including the great value overseas membership at Carne mentioned in the article - have an unlimited number of guests that can be taken on by a member.

[Sean_A]

David,

It actually surprised me recently when I found out some clubs have a limit on guest numbers (e.g. 12 as you mention).

Any clubs I am associated with - including the great value overseas membership at Carne mentioned in the article - have an unlimited number of guests that can be taken on by a member.

I am surprised as well. I can understand limiting a particular guest to a limited number of rounds, but not the total number of guests. But I guess its a seller market these days. So far as I can tell, growing the game has done well at driving up prices. 😎

Ciao

[Thomas Dai]

So far as I can tell, growing the game has done well at driving up prices. 😎

A very insightful observation especially through the COVID period. Not just higher prices but less availability, slower rounds etc.
Atb

[Niall C]

David


Being able to bring guests is not a perk, it is part of your membership. In recent years, possibly/probably because of the advent of professional club managers, a lot of clubs have decided to use this as an additional revenue stream in a way that they didn't previously. I think that's a shame a d possibly a mistake as I think the loss of the value of the membership to the individual member is greater than the additional revenue.


Niall 

[David_Tepper]

Ally -

Interesting that some clubs allow members to bring an unlimited number of guests at the "guest of member" rate. The two clubs in Scotland I belong to limit that number as I mentioned.

Niall -

From a U.S. perspective, I consider it a perk. 

DT

[Lou_Duran]

So far as I can tell, growing the game has done well at driving up prices. 😎

A very insightful observation especially through the COVID period. Not just higher prices but less availability, slower rounds etc.
Atb

Insightful???  Simple, kitchen-table economics, my good man, i.e. goose demand without increasing supply, rounds re-price.  Homo economicus is not just the rich guy, "the greedy billionaire" we love to malign, but also the owner, board member, or the GM who must answer to his boss.  It includes the UK local member who enjoys an incredibly low subscription by giving up some of his access, privacy and convenience to allow "visitors" to pay for the substantial portion of his club's operating costs.  A fair, uncoerced exchange, it seems to me.  Of course, this does not preclude some members, those who enjoy the benefits, but not the costs,  from whining righteously.


A consideration in answering the original question is the span of time remaining in one's golfing life.  I looked at an overseas membership at Royal Portrush shortly after the pre-Open renovation and the upfront cost (£20k-) just seemed prohibitive for the number of years I have left to amortize that amount,  Had this fee been nominal and the annual subscriptions three or four times higher, it would have been an easier decision.


I wish I would have jumped on one of these 30 years ago as playing in the UK has been a highly rewarding experience.  Having a place over there to call home is gratifying, but finding the right place is key.  It is certainly worth exploring.

[Niall C]

Lou


Can I just check that's not a typo, you were quoted £20,000 for membership at Royal Portrush ? Was that a one-off one time payment with no subsequent annual subs ?


Niall

[Sean_A]

David

Being able to bring guests is not a perk, it is part of your membership. In recent years, possibly/probably because of the advent of professional club managers, a lot of clubs have decided to use this as an additional revenue stream in a way that they didn't previously. I think that's a shame a d possibly a mistake as I think the loss of the value of the membership to the individual member is greater than the additional revenue.

Niall

Agree and disagree. It's a great member benefit if the guest fee is cheap enough that paying for a guest is not a worry. Once we get into the 100 quid for three guests range is more prohibitive and likely to result in fewer guests. I have long thought guest fees should be cheap if only because that is the best pool for new members. I have never understood why American clubs charge guests so much. Very strange policy.

Ciao

[Tim Martin]

Having an overseas membership would incentivize an annual/biannual trip for those that hold one. Obviously you could return with greater frequency if you could manage it. There’s a lot to be said for returning to the same course/club where you are welcomed and become familiar with the area over time. I can’t imagine many were being sold during Covid but interest is now being ramped up as travel restrictions are lifted and we slowly get back to normal or semi normal if you prefer. The flip side that has been discussed here frequently is that you can still get access to most of the courses without being a member.

[Niall C]

Sean


My threshold is a good bit less than that and I suspect that holds true for a lot of members of run of the mill clubs. Perhaps because of this, in recent years it seems to have become the norm for the guest to pay the guest fee which kind of stretches the definition of "hosting".


Niall

[Jeff Schley]

Overseas are great if you can use them. Last couple years haven't worked well, but you take the ups with the downs. Getting access to members tee times at prime times is great value for when you get into town.
Really if you don't fancy your club anymore you just move on out and not renew, no large bonds are lost as at US clubs. They make it easy to join and easy to leave, but with the camaraderie as long as you golf and can travel most just keep the membership rolling.

[Lou_Duran]

Lou


Can I just check that's not a typo, you were quoted £20,000 for membership at Royal Portrush ? Was that a one-off one time payment with no subsequent annual subs ?


Niall

Not a typo, but not an exact figure either.  The lifetime international membership was priced for a one-time fee between £15,000 and £33,000, depending on age (<45 years of age at the high figure) plus annual subs (<£400 at that time).  The IM did not have a role in club governance (e.g. attending meetings, voting, nominating new members), and had restrictions on participating in the important club competitions based on lesser club events played annually (making it difficult for infrequent visitors to qualify).  With non-resident plans at American clubs as a reference, RP's seemed reasonable given its great quality and pedigree.


Sean,


Accompanied guest fees have gone through the roof, primarily because so many courses have experienced a large increase in play.  At the affluent clubs with great courses, I'm not sure that this is having a big impact.  Combined with all the helicopter cash flowing since COVID and the surprising # of golfers now "working from home", greenfee inflation may have a ways to go.


Tim,


A club I am familiar with experienced the lowest level of turnover in Q2 2020- Q1 2021 in 30 years by a factor of up to 8 times.  In fact, the demand has been so high during this period that it closed the entry level membership in 2022.  Those already in the pipeline have an undetermined wait.  Fortunately for those looking at UK memberships, there are other attractive opportunities at lesser recognized clubs, and it is reasonable to expect that the madness of the last couple of years will subside.         

[JohnVDB]

That's a lot of money for an "international membership"
One of the things I like about being a member at Royal Dornoch is that there is no such distinction between local and international members.  As many here know, you first become a Struie member and after some time you are invited to become what is referred to in the Rules of the club as an "ordinary member".  All Ordinary members are equal with the minor exception that a majority of the Governing Council must be residents of a defined local area for at least 9 months of the year.

As for guests, we are all bound by the same rules.  10 guests between April and October on the Championship course with no more than 3 in a day and 6 in a 30 day period.  I can understand this Rule because the club, like many in the UK, makes a huge percentage of their revenue through outside play.  There are enough groups of Americans coming over every year that might have a member with them that allowing unlimited guests on a course with the renown of Dornoch could quickly become a financial hit that would be very noticeable.  I've seen a number of groups of 8 players where there is one member on the trip. I had 8 friends come over in a group in 2019.  I could get tees for all of us, but I could only get guest fees for 3 of them.

I believe that there are some high-end courses in the US that also limit the number of guests that can be brought in during the primary season as well.

Tim,
My membership has definitely caused me to make more and longer trips over to Scotland.  It also got me to buy a small flat in Dornoch when I retired so that I can spend 3 months or more a year there. I was able to spend 3 months a year there in each of the last two years, in spite of Covid.

Some clubs sold a large number of memberships during Covid.  Primarily because people loved the course and they were having financial issues so they stepped up.  Brora was one of the main ones although I think others also sold a number of memberships.

[Mark Chaplin]

There’s a host of Facebook sites for people to swap reciprocal golf. You sign me in, i’ll sign you in. Can’t really blame clubs for upping guest fees if members are inviting guests they’ve never met just to save a few quid.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Have to say that the St Enodoc membership made me interested. Quick flight to Newquay, couple of weeks a year in a beautiful part of Cornwall, 6 or 7 rounds for £285.


But in reality, Cruden Bay would work better for me as I grew up and have family in Aberdeen. £400 a year is wonderful value if you have reason to visit.


Still, I have two great clubs already. I’m not sure I’d want to tie myself down to playing my holiday golf in the same place year after year.

[JohnVDB]

There’s a host of Facebook sites for people to swap reciprocal golf. You sign me in, i’ll sign you in. Can’t really blame clubs for upping guest fees if members are inviting guests they’ve never met just to save a few quid.

Back when I was only going over for a week or two a year, I had a member ask me to register his guests since he knew I wasn't going to use up my 10.
Obviously with Covid, I didn't have any guests the last two years.  I've got 3 signed up for this year.

[Ally Mcintosh]

There’s a host of Facebook sites for people to swap reciprocal golf. You sign me in, i’ll sign you in. Can’t really blame clubs for upping guest fees if members are inviting guests they’ve never met just to save a few quid.

The amount of people that really abuse the system must be minute, though? I don’t think what you state is that big an issue at any club, really. Could be wrong - do you see consistent behaviour like that making a material difference to income at Deal?


Personally, I’d rather pay a higher subscription if it meant keeping the guest rate down. A really low guest rate is one of the pillars of all the great clubs in GB&I. It seems to be the modern clubs where the guest rate is often 50% of the visitor rate.

[Lou_Duran]

JVDB,


Can you sign a guest in at RD without playing with him (unaccompanied)?


My recollection is that guest rounds are limited to two per week for an individual guest, and six per year.  The policy seemed to be strictly enforced, though I think it was relaxed during COVID with respect to the per week limit.


The UK's restrictions on foreign ownership of residences and banking as explained to me pretty much eliminated any plans to follow your suit.  A further complication is the number of B & Bs which have ceased operating; four that I've used in the past NLE.  Coupled with this year's incredibly high visitor bookings, I'm not sure that I can get a reasonable place to stay and a game during the summer season.  I do like the newish condo project behind the clubhouse a lot.

[David_Tepper]

For those wishing (and willing) to travel to the Scottish Highlands, Overseas/Country memberships at Golspie, Brora & Tain are available and a real value at about 300 pounds per year. As far as I know, a joining fee is not required.

Not only do you get unlimited play at the club you join (and the ability to introduce a certain number of guests at the "guest of member" green fee), you also get 3 reciprocal rounds per year at the "guest of member" rate at each of the other clubs (as well as at a certain nearby Royal club  ). 

[JohnVDB]

JVDB,


Can you sign a guest in at RD without playing with him (unaccompanied)?


My recollection is that guest rounds are limited to two per week for an individual guest, and six per year.  The policy seemed to be strictly enforced, though I think it was relaxed during COVID with respect to the per week limit.


The UK's restrictions on foreign ownership of residences and banking as explained to me pretty much eliminated any plans to follow your suit.  A further complication is the number of B & Bs which have ceased operating; four that I've used in the past NLE.  Coupled with this year's incredibly high visitor bookings, I'm not sure that I can get a reasonable place to stay and a game during the summer season.  I do like the newish condo project behind the clubhouse a lot.

No, I believe they must be accompanied.


There are limit is like that.  I can’t remember the exact details.


I found a solution for the banking issue that works.  As for foreign ownership, I’m not sure.  Since I have a British passport it wasn’t a problem for me, but enough others have bought over there that I’m sure it is surmountable.  I looked at those when they were first opening and didn’t want to pay that much.  Given what’s happened with prices in Dornoch they might have been a fairer price than it looked like originally.

[JohnVDB]

For those wishing (and willing) to travel to the Scottish Highlands, Overseas/Country memberships at Golspie, Brora & Tain are available and a real value at about 300 pounds per year. As far as I know, a joining fee is not required.

Not only do you get unlimited play at the club you join (and the ability to introduce a certain number of guests at the "guest of member" green fee), you also get 3 reciprocal rounds per year at the "guest of member" rate at each of the other clubs (as well as at a certain nearby Royal club  ).

I know of at least one person who chose to join Golspie for the reciprocals down the road.

[Lou_Duran]

Thanks John.  The condos behind the clubhouse are too expensive for me to own, but with another member sharing in the fall, it was a very reasonable rental.  From what I understand, there is an upfront tax on a foreign owner, maybe 10%.  I didn't look into it enough to see if putting a unit into the rental pool would pay for itself, though I doubt it and I'm not sure I'd like that anyways.


I too know a Golspie member who joined in part for the reciprocals.  He has had mixed luck in using them at RD, but he is normally in the area during the summer months.  I do like the 7-8 two-ball times and have gotten lucky to use them a couple of times.  The only problem is that you have to fly in under 2.5 hours, then what do you do with the rest of the day?


We did play Brora once in the fall after a morning round at RD.  The experience was akin to playing Wild Horse immediately after Sand Hills.  Much better in the opposite order.


I have played opens at both Golspie and Tain, enjoying both.  One of the chaps joining us at Tain travels the Highlands playing in open competitions and says he has no need to join a club as a result.  I like Brora and Golspie quite a bit; Tain not as much, though I only played it once and quite poorly at that.  From the beginning, I had a hard time seeing where to hit the ball.