Changes to #10 at Riviera?

[Sam Kestin]

In listening to the broadcasts over the weekend at Riviera, I was struck by how many commentators (and others) feel like changes need to be made to the tenth hole as it has gotten "too severe."


By and large, the most commonly proposed change was softening the green so that the slope from the player's right to left is far less pronounced.


What did the experts here think in watching the play at the tenth?


Was it too severe?


Should changes be made?


Curious to hear everyone's thoughts.

[Blake Conant]

I imagine they address "sand splash" build-up fairly regularly on that hole. Tommy Nac or Geoff may know how often they actually do it, but it has to be more than the other greenside bunkers on the course.

[Mike Bodo]

I think someone said in a different topic thread regarding #10 green at Riviera that it was never intended for green speeds of 11 or 12 on the stimpmeter and that it normally rolls at an 8 or 9 during member play. Perhaps that's the one green on the course during the tournament you play under normal conditions? I suppose you could alter the green so that it slopes back to front as opposed to front to back, but that totally changes the playing characteristics of the hole and makes it much less exciting, IMO.


The fact that so much time has been spent here and by those in the media regarding this one hole should tell you all you need to know about it's greatness and place in golfing lore.

[Mark_Fine]

Good or bad but George Thomas would not recognize how the hole is played today by most everyone.  There is one way to properly play it - just short and to the left of the green.

[Tom_Doak]

They are so used to every great green being softened that it is inevitable it will happen to this one, too - they will just do it very quietly whenever they succumb to the pressure to rebuild them all.

[Matt_Cohn]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!


It really does slope a LOT. A 40-50 footer from the front edge to a middle pin breaks 10 feet minimum. You could play closer to 15 sometimes.

[jeffwarne]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!


It really does slope a LOT. A 40-50 footer from the front edge to a middle pin breaks 10 feet minimum. You could play closer to 15 sometimes.

Give the players an original Spalding Tour Edition or a balata ball on the tee

[Jeff Schley]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!


It really does slope a LOT. A 40-50 footer from the front edge to a middle pin breaks 10 feet minimum. You could play closer to 15 sometimes.

I last played in 2018 and our host said they were rolling 11 that day and were "slow". It is a great course and think it should host another US Open after LACC has it's turn. Let's not forget it will be the Olympic course in 2028, which is only 6 years away.  That will really allow it to shine I believe.

[jeffwarne]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!


It really does slope a LOT. A 40-50 footer from the front edge to a middle pin breaks 10 feet minimum. You could play closer to 15 sometimes.

I last played in 2018 and our host said they were rolling 11 that day and were "slow".

LOL
How often do we hear that?....

[Jeff Schley]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!


It really does slope a LOT. A 40-50 footer from the front edge to a middle pin breaks 10 feet minimum. You could play closer to 15 sometimes.

I last played in 2018 and our host said they were rolling 11 that day and were "slow".

LOL
How often do we hear that?....

Easier to note when we DON'T hear that right?

[Sam Kestin]

One thing the commentators said that I do agree with is that the the lay-up is no longer really a viable play, and I would definitely favor alterations to the hole that better restore the balance of the strategic choice between the lay up and taking a run at the green.


An issue I see with the hole is that the fairway for the lay up area cuts out far too early and before the fairway reaches what I would consider to be the "line of success" at the tenth. I've always believed that (irrespective of length) if you draw a line from the back right edge of the green straight through the front edge and extend that line all the way back to the driving range that you'll generally have more success from the "far" side of that line as compared to the "short" side. Even if you're in the trees that are like 30 yards left of the green, absent being actually stymied by a tree (which doesn't happen that often) you can usually manufacture a shot from the good angle that is easier than playing from a bad angle in the fairway.


As a kid who couldn't reach the green (and as an adult who needs serious Santa Ana winds to think about it) I always favored deliberately driving the ball through the fairway on the left and into the area by the cart path to the left front of the cross bunker. While you did have to lob your wedge shot over the trees, that shot (because of the angle) always seemed way easier than even the wedge shot played from the "correct" lay up position in the fairway.


I think the hole would be much improved if they reconfigured the lay up area and extended the fairway to include this spot left of the cross bunker. It would take some work reconfiguring the cart path and the mound between 10 and 11 fairways, but if this area that I loved to play from was actually fairway I think it might make the lay up a more attractive option.

[Mike Bodo]

I don't think anyone seriously believes that Riviera keeps its greens at 8-9 on the stimp for member play!

It wasn't all greens at Riviera were kept at an 8 or 9 for member play, just that particular one.

[David Ober]

I think someone said in a different topic thread regarding #10 green at Riviera that it was never intended for green speeds of 11 or 12 on the stimpmeter and that it normally rolls at an 8 or 9 during member play. Perhaps that's the one green on the course during the tournament you play under normal conditions? I suppose you could alter the green so that it slopes back to front as opposed to front to back, but that totally changes the playing characteristics of the hole and makes it much less exciting, IMO.


The fact that so much time has been spent here and by those in the media regarding this one hole should tell you all you need to know about it's greatness and place in golfing lore.

Have played Riv half a dozen times. Never have they ever rolled 8 or 9 when I played there. Slowest ever was maybe 10.5. And, yes, I own a stimpmeter (and know how to use it).


Those greens for the Genesis were probably 12.5 to 13.5. Poa greens in SoCal in the winter can get viciously fast when double-cut, rolled, and dried out. As important as the speed, though, was their firmness. Those greens were very firm. Crazy how low Niemann was able to go in those conditions.


IMO, that green would, actually, benefit from a very small change to the right-to-left slope if they are going to keep the speed/firmness that way for the Genesis.

[Tony Dear]

Assuming most of us believe the hole doesn't play anything like how Thomas intended, and short of going back to persimmon and balata, what would you most like to see happen:
1. Green contours softened
2. Contours retained but green expanded
3. Green slowed?

I think it's still an exciting hole to watch most of the time, but the variety of approaches and ways to play it seems to diminish every year.

[JESII]

I think the hole would be much improved if they reconfigured the lay up area and extended the fairway to include this spot left of the cross bunker. It would take some work reconfiguring the cart path and the mound between 10 and 11 fairways, but if this area that I loved to play from was actually fairway I think it might make the lay up a more attractive option.

Strictly from the aerial and the TV coverage, I'd say this is an idea that would give guys a good reason to take an alternate route.

[Kalen Braley]

Given the current length and setup, it seems the hole has become one dimensional, at least for when the pros play it.  Looking at the ball dispersion from the other thread, it seems nearly everyone is basically aiming for the same spot, just short and left of the green.

Aren't great short par 4s supposed to tempt players to try different strategies, instead of dictating one play??

[JESII]

I suspect the current access, to and use of, data and statistics is driving the Tour guys to a very narrow set of strategies on any hole.


If they went to a new course and had a hole like #10, you'd see a much broader spread...not sure if there are any examples that could support that claim...ha.

[Kalen Braley]

I suspect the current access, to and use of, data and statistics is driving the Tour guys to a very narrow set of strategies on any hole.

If they went to a new course and had a hole like #10, you'd see a much broader spread...not sure if there are any examples that could support that claim...ha.

Jim,

I suspect if they played a hole like CPC 9 on tour, there would be nowhere near 1 one to play that hole...

[V. Kmetz]

I observed a two man crew Stimp #10 after the last group went through Friday... they could only use the front right of the green for the measure...


12.1 is what the guy said to his partner... end of the day.


If what TD said before is inevitable, then I suspect:

• 1. the contours, specifically the front left, will be softened.
• 2. the margins may be expanded, mostly towards the tee, but perhaps another 2 to 3 yards between the green side bunkers

If there is any honest issue with the hole for everyday play/design, it is that point which some have brought up... the resulting lay up approach shot is no better, and may be worse, than wildly slashing anywhere up nearer the green. But as I said in another thread, it's my understanding that the alternate green is in use far more than the famed one...and if you could see or play that hole, you'd understand that green site drops the hole to one of the plainest on the course.

[Tim_Weiman]

One thing the commentators said that I do agree with is that the the lay-up is no longer really a viable play, and I would definitely favor alterations to the hole that better restore the balance of the strategic choice between the lay up and taking a run at the green.


An issue I see with the hole is that the fairway for the lay up area cuts out far too early and before the fairway reaches what I would consider to be the "line of success" at the tenth. I've always believed that (irrespective of length) if you draw a line from the back right edge of the green straight through the front edge and extend that line all the way back to the driving range that you'll generally have more success from the "far" side of that line as compared to the "short" side. Even if you're in the trees that are like 30 yards left of the green, absent being actually stymied by a tree (which doesn't happen that often) you can usually manufacture a shot from the good angle that is easier than playing from a bad angle in the fairway.


As a kid who couldn't reach the green (and as an adult who needs serious Santa Ana winds to think about it) I always favored deliberately driving the ball through the fairway on the left and into the area by the cart path to the left front of the cross bunker. While you did have to lob your wedge shot over the trees, that shot (because of the angle) always seemed way easier than even the wedge shot played from the "correct" lay up position in the fairway.


I think the hole would be much improved if they reconfigured the lay up area and extended the fairway to include this spot left of the cross bunker. It would take some work reconfiguring the cart path and the mound between 10 and 11 fairways, but if this area that I loved to play from was actually fairway I think it might make the lay up a more attractive option.

Sam,


It has been about thirty years since I played Riviera. I recall going for the green once and then playing a lay up shot on another visit. Don’t recall the layup being a problem.


Curious what may have changed since circa 1990.

[David Kelly]

Assuming most of us believe the hole doesn't play anything like how Thomas intended, and short of going back to persimmon and balata, what would you most like to see happen:
1. Green contours softened
2. Contours retained but green expanded
3. Green slowed?

I think it's still an exciting hole to watch most of the time, but the variety of approaches and ways to play it seems to diminish every year.

4. Nothing.  I have no interest in watching the pros play it, only in playing it myself on the rare occaisions I have the chance.
I would vote for a 5th option where the hole would be changed as part of a total restoration effort of the entire course by someone who knows what they are doing but short of that just do nothing. 

[Matt_Cohn]

If the ball were rolled back so that guys were driving at 275 or even 250, would that change anyone’s view of weather changes should be made to #10?

[Ronald Montesano]

The stats piece I read said the opposite: the layup gave more birdies than the alternative (trying to drive to the green.) Plus, it gave fewer bogies and bigger numbers.

[Joel_Stewart]

There is a restoration plan and some debate on the work but the ownership is well aware of the 2028 Olympics and the need to prepare the course. They've had a few architects in but no decision has been made.


They have a new super who came in from Bel Air after that successful restoration.


When I played there last year, the greens easily ran 11 and maybe 12.


IMHO, 10 has a problem with the evolutionary buildup of sand from the front bunker.  The slope is now so steep and the green so fast, I've putted into the back bunker several times.

[John Kirk]

I would take out the back bunker.  The left bunker seems to prevent laying up to an ideal approach angle, which is kind of stupid, too.  In addition, I might add a couple feet to the width of the green.  The back bunker would be replaced with a sloped area of short grass where the ball often rolls 10-20 yards away.  Come tournament time, I would make sure the rough behind the green offered a moderately difficult challenge.

It's too hard the way it is.  The average score at the last tournament was 3.9, not really a swing hole.  Make it easier to make a birdie.  Let the pros try to play past the green and see what happens.

I no longer consider it a marquee spectator hole.