O.T. Phil Mickelson on International Politics and Human Rights

[Steve Lang]

All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao

Sean, you're spot on there...
I guess the only question now is whether there'll be any Kitty Kelley colonoscopy comparisons for Shipnuck... by all the authorized and unauthorized critics

[Tommy Williamsen]

All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao

No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.

[Sean_A]

All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao

No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.

You are missing the point. By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis and many other sordid types throughout our history. I am not convinced it can be avoided to be honest. Choosing to turn a blind eye doesn't make it any less true.

Ciao

[Tommy Williamsen]

All this bile. When will folks realize that we are all in bed with Saudis because our governments and corporations lead the way in doing business with the Saudis. The principal is set, its open business with the Saudis. You lot hang around the edges arguing over the degree of duplicity. Phil tries to maximise his profit and people think he's the devil. The hypocrisy of the finger pointing is staggering or perhaps its naivety or even stupidity. The rub of it all is that going after Phil does nothing to solve the issues.

Ciao

No one can answer for Phil. I had to ask myself, “What would I do?” I hope I wouldn’t make my bed in Saudi Arabia but who knows until confronted with the possibility. We can, however, feel sad about Phil’s unwise remarks.

You are missing the point. By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis and many other sordid types throughout our history. I am not convinced it can be avoided to be honest. Choosing to turn a blind eye doesn't make it any less true.

Ciao

I’m not disagreeing. I was answering another question.

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady

[Rob Marshall]

A young lady from my home town was on a college trip when her flight blew up over Scotland. The Scottish government let one of the terrorist serving a life sentence go and he returned home to a heroes welcome. Perhaps we should boycott Scotland. Somethings are out of citizens of every countries control.

[Colin Macqueen]

Rob, Don't be daft!
What Kalen said! Living in the country does not mean, axiomatically, that you agree with that government's (and was it Scotland's or England's) every decision!
I can assure you that many, many Scots were furious that the bomber was allowed to "flee". I could feel the anger in my family all the way down here to Oz.
If you decide to snub, denigrate, demean and boycott the Scots remember their motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"!
Heaven forbid you might miss out on a few golf courses!!
Cheers Colin

[Rob Marshall]

Rob, Don't be daft!
What Kalen said! Living in the country does not mean, axiomatically, that you agree with that government's (and was it Scotland's or England's) every decision!
I can assure you that many, many Scots were furious that the bomber was allowed to "flee". I could feel the anger in my family all the way down here to Oz.
If you decide to snub, denigrate, demean and boycott the Scots remember their motto "Nemo me impune lacessit"!
Heaven forbid you might miss out on a few golf courses!!
Cheers Colin

I wasn’t  deeming Scots. My point was we as citizens of every country have to deal with political  decisions we don’t agree with. That includes Americans, Scots, everyone of us.

[Sean_A]

Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady

It's good to know some people are trying to keep tabs.. thank you. But, ultimately, the people are responsible for their elected leaders which is presumably one reason you keep tabs. It doesn't mean we agree with all their actions, but on some level we are, in fact responsible. But it goes much deeper. The money rolling through our economy makes it nearly impossible to steer clear of blood money. Our society is infected with blood money. That's just the way it is and as I said before, I don't know if it's possible to keep an economy 100% clean money, whatever that means which is partly my point. We all have a different definition of dirty money.

Ciao

[Kalen Braley]

Sean,

I disagree with the above statements.  Just because I live in a country does not mean I'm complicit in the legal arrangements that country has entered into.  Safe to say I strongly disagree with several US Policies, laws, and regulations otherwise. 

As for me and what I can do...as much due diligence as possible to not buy products from irresponsible companies, or vote for politicians who enter in above agreements.  As for gas, the US gets about 5% of its Oil from Saudi, and if there was a gas station chain that could guarantee it doesn't use Saudi Oil, you bet your ass I would use it.

P.S.  And yes I've left at least one place of employment because their business practices seemed a bit shady

It's good to know some people are trying to keep tabs.. thank you. But, ultimately, the people are responsible for their elected leaders which is presumably one reason you keep tabs. It doesn't mean we agree with all their actions, but on some level we are, in fact responsible. But it goes much deeper. The money rolling through our economy makes it nearly impossible to steer clear of blood money. Our society is infected with blood money. That's just the way it is and as I said before, I don't know if it's possible to keep an economy 100% clean money, whatever that means which is partly my point. We all have a different definition of dirty money.

Ciao

Sean,

I completely understand that last post, and agree.  There is hardly a country on the planet that is not complicit is some way. The parts in your prior posts I didn't agree with are:

"By taking part in this grand American Experiment we are all in bed with the Saudis".

The American govt and big business are in bed with them, not the vast majority of its citizens.  And it doesn't end there...

[Pat Burke]

I’m probably complicit Too.
I buy gas at the best price.
Worked for golf owners that took advantage or even misled customers.
BuY foreign cars.
I’m certain  I have Chinese products , but haven’t really checked much of my purchases.


And I dealt with the pga tour in high levels and my experience as an unknown players were in some cases, disgusting. I spoke out but I also kept playing.  Why?  Because it’s where you play to get somewhere.


My glass house is fragile, putting down my stones

[Craig Sweet]

This guy is so out of touch.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing

[Anthony Butler]

Sons pardon Saudi Arabian journalist Khashoggi’s killers

Almost certainly coerced.

The part about all Saudi Govt. employees who sentenced to death or lengthy prison terms while the people who ordered this killing are free to run the country certainly gets your attention..

[Rob Marshall]

This guy is so out of touch.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/12/greg-norman-we-all-make-mistakes-when-asked-about-jamal-khashoggi-killing

He's not out of touch, He hates the PGA Tour Admin so much he doesn't care. He knows the truth, he just chooses to ignore it.

[Craig Sweet]

I won't exactly call butchering an American journalist like a cow an "opps, we all make "mistakes".  Normans ego does not allow him to accept reality.

[A.G._Crockett]

I won't exactly call butchering an American journalist like a cow an "opps, we all make "mistakes".  Normans ego does not allow him to accept reality.

It's not easy to find a way to make Mickelson and Shipnuck look good in this mess, but Norman was able to do it with ease.  And fwiw, Norman isn't just about hating the PGA Tour; he is attempting to use the R&A as part of his show by casting them as bad guys for not letting a 67 year old publicity hound who hasn't competed in years have a spot in the Open.


I'm sure there have been more graceless aftermaths to a great career; I just can't think of any right now.

Golf is big.  When Norman and Mickelson leave the stage, however and whenever that occurs, the game will be fine.  Their attempts to appear somehow relevant are tiresome, to say the least.

[Ken Moum]

FWIW, love the PGA Tour or hate it, their reaction, and that of players like Thomas and Morikawa aren't really about how terrible the Saudis are.


It's about Phil's openly stated goal to lever the tour into being "better" in its relationship with the players, whatever that means. We all know that a lot of the leaders in that part of the world aren't such nice folks, as if Western leaders are blameless.


The PGA Tour has created a money-making machine for anyone good enough to get on tour and stay there for a significant period, and all the things Mickelson and Norman have bitched about are part of why it is that machine.


"Forcing" players to enter a minimum number of events and controlling secondary media rights are certainly key to big purses and a hefty pension plan.  As for Phil griping about the cash reserves, I have seen it suggested that without them the tour wouldn't have been able to get through the Covid restrictions,


I agree with those who said we are unlikely to avoid relationships with bad actors, simply because our leaders either decide to, or can't find another way.

[jeffwarne]

Pretty strong words from Wayne Grady.
I've not really criticized Mickelson for playing in Saudi and all that entails(it wouldn't be for me but to each their own), but rather for the way he and Norman have gone about supporting a rival tour and bashing their own on the way out.
Greg Norman was always a huge deal for me, growing up idolizing him at Augusta as a young charismatic exciting player who wanted it so bad he couldn't close it. We can all relate to that, and we were all crushed he never won there, depriving him and all of us the chance to see him there for life.
But, along the way, his perceived failures most definitely changed and molded him, and not for the better IMHO.
I ate breakfast with him once and he was running quite late for a course opening clinic he was due to conduct for a good friend/client. He was in no hurry and made it quite clear he'd rush for no one, not knowing my relationship. It seemed like a dick move to me.
Then I went out and watched the clinic that started 30 minutes late  and he absolutely won me over again.
Incredible display.


Just seems like he got lost along the way, but then I really don't give a $hi%$ about how powerful or how much $$ someone has, and he seems to care deeply about worldly stuff, as if compensating for lack of major wins he, and we, all feel he deserved.


I'll stay tuned, but I'm pretty sure it's not off to the start he or the organizers envisioned.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

Your last post really hit home to me.  I have no clue who Norman actually is and only have his decisions and public persona and comments to form an opinion from.  And as poorly of what I think of him with his involvement with the Saudis...

When i watched his recent 30 for 30 that was heavily centered around his experiences at Augusta and the various other things both professionally and personally that he opened up on and spoke very frankly, I couldn't help to feel empathy and root for the guy.

And this is an odd place for me because when it comes to highly public figures, I'm pretty binary in my opinions of them for better or worse...but Norman seems to flip flop back and forth in my mind.

[Pat Burke]

With Phil’s WD from the PGA, and the statement released by the PGA,


I’m a little worried that the PGA seemed to be saying Phil is welcome to play and be a member.


But they added wording  wishing Phil and Amy well.
I hope Amy is doing ok. I may be reading in to this, but that seemed a little cryptic to me

[Lou_Duran]

A friend visited the Tour's facility in FL recently and remarked about its space-age, opulent digs.  I think that Lefty's major issue has a bit to do with the benefits of the Tour flowing disproportionately to those who have relatively little to do with its success.


Notwithstanding his rhetorical excess, he may have a point.  Ultra-high salaries and benefits, enviable travel perks, and getting in as an integral part of "the show" by folks who don't hit a single shot probably wears thin on those who make their way primarily on the scores they achieve.  How a journeyman like Pat Burke does not enjoy pension benefits despite the many cuts he made prior to injury is puzzling.


The $Billions of past, current and projected revenues from all the data and images which are being created for at least 20+ years should be widely shared, IMO.  If the Tour was in the oil or healthcare business and restrained trade as it is attempting to do, I am sure that the federal government would have stepped in.  $1 Billion in non-pension obligated cash should be more than ample to meet a Black Swan possibly appearing in the future.  Are we not getting a bit tired of blaming Covid for all the crap that we are currently experiencing?  Thank God we haven't quite yet jumped the shark and started blaming Putin for this mess.


I will miss not seeing Michelson at Southern Hills.  He probably would not have made the cut, but it would have added a lot more interest.

[cary lichtenstein]

I think Phil Michelson's gambling habits, loss of everyone of his sponsors and the severe loss of income will cause Phil to go to the Saudi Tour. Phil parted ways with his caddy because Phil owed him back pay...that says an awful lot about Phil's money woes. I heard he parted with his beloved Private Jet, he has not started construction on his Jupiter Island Home. Could it be that Phil is broke? If the Saudi's are offering him a guaranteed $25 million per year deal, I'd bet (no pun intended) he takes it.

[Brian_Ewen]

If you get past the paywall, an interesting read.


https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/phil-was-more-concerned-about-who-was-winning-the-football-games-the-story-behind-mickelsons-betting-habit-70kh0zt9q

[Jonathan Cummings]

I think Phil Michelson's gambling habits, loss of everyone of his sponsors and the severe loss of income will cause Phil to go to the Saudi Tour. Phil parted ways with his caddy because Phil owed him back pay...that says an awful lot about Phil's money woes. I heard he parted with his beloved Private Jet, he has not started construction on his Jupiter Island Home. Could it be that Phil is broke? If the Saudi's are offering him a guaranteed $25 million per year deal, I'd bet (no pun intended) he takes it.

Cary - I heard yesterday almost the identical summary from a Grove 23 friend.  Seems Phil is financially strapped which explains his move to the Saudis.

[Kalen Braley]

I have a hard time believing Phil is broke.  All the usual sites put his net worth at well over $100 mill., some at $200 or more.  Even if they were way off, seems like he would still be easily sitting in the tens of millions.

I'm guessing Phil has a bit of the Donald in him and once he has a grudge with someone (like Bones), he cuts em off.  He played for 4 years after letting him go and pretty sure he wasn't stiffing his new caddy...

P.S. Seems Occam's Razor need be applied here..

He'll be 52 next month, his best years are behind him but he can still play.  When someone comes along, aka the Saudis, and offers to pay him the same amount of money over the next 3-4 years, that took him the prior 30 years to earn as a pro ($94 million)...seems like a bit of a no-brainer if you have no concern for where the money is coming from.