Riviera on the ropes

[MCirba]

-16 after two rounds at fabled Riviera...hmmm.

Thinking they should move the tees back to 9,000 yards that would replicate the challenge of the course in 1990 before the governing bodies let technology run amok.

[Kalen Braley]

-16 after two rounds at fabled Riviera...hmmm.

Thinking they should move the tees back to 9,000 yards that would replicate the challenge of the course in 1990 before the governing bodies let technology run amok.

Mike,


Don't be absurd... all they need is 15-20 yard wide fairways, 6 inch rough, and greens stimping at 15....problem solved! 

[MCirba]

Kalen,


Narrow them to 8-10 yards and you've got a deal!

[JESII]

With a cut line at Even or +1? Interesting...


I'll bet you a round at Cobbs Creek in 2024 that the winning score is no better than 20 under.


Now -20 at RIviera is tremendous, but these guys go all out to get into position and when it's on, it's on. Nieman looked like he was trying to hole every iron shot yesterday for the hour I saw...just can't do anything about that.

[MCirba]

With a cut line at Even or +1? Interesting...


I'll bet you a round at Cobbs Creek in 2024 that the winning score is no better than 20 under.


Now -20 at RIviera is tremendous, but these guys go all out to get into position and when it's on, it's on. Nieman looked like he was trying to hole every iron shot yesterday for the hour I saw...just can't do anything about that.

Jim,


Make it two rounds and we're on.

[MCirba]

Channeling my inner Barney...




At least with the Saudi tour there's always the excitement that your favorite player may be dismembered.

[Colin Christman]

I'm not sure it bothers me too much. When it comes down to the handful of leaders on Sunday, Riviera will likely produce interesting golf.


It's more important to me that a course holds up as an interesting competition venue than it is that it holds up in terms of "resistance to scoring". In my mind, this speaks to the primacy of green complexes as architectural features of import. No way around having to solve those problems, even if the exact nature of the problems may vary with the times.

[Mark_Fine]

Used to be a great test of driving.  Now more a test of wedges. 

[MCirba]

Mark,


Can't imagine we'll be seeing a Dave Stockton-like 247 yard, sidehill 3-wood approach to 12 feet on 18 this year.  Maybe a sawed-off lob wedge from 110 instead?

[V. Kmetz]

MC,


I'm out here for the event, and while it doesn't mitigate the spirit of what you say, I have to admit the scoring conditions for elite players was perfect...even more so for Riviera... which I've played and nearly the most studied beloved course in my sphere.


1. Perfect growing weather leading up to and through... resulted in

• greens quick on roll but receiving of shots (I saw them stimping #10 at the end of Friday...they use the front right corner (only flats with enough room)...12.1 after last group went through)
• fairways rolling at like 5-6 on the Stimp...(WF everyday 7-8 by comparison) quick enough for distance roll out but not so fast balls go hurtling through the angles

2. Absolute perfect mild WSW wind for Riviera...down on the p5s ...into, on the Par3s (except #6)...
3. Considering #1 and #2, favorable pins abound.
4. There is no rough, perhaps by a few greensites or way afield, but a little greasy ball control is the only problem I can see... it's barely 3/4" in most spots... I genuinely think ANGCs second cut is more of a problem


5. And then...everything you said in your OP...


vk

[Kalen Braley]

Joaquin certainly seems to be using the tried and true formula for success on Tour in the last 10 or so years.  Bomb away with impunity and to hell with accuracy.

His current tour rank for this season:

Driving Distance - 44
Accuracy off the tee - 137

[Ronald Montesano]

I really love all you guys. Rinse, repeat.


Riviera is amazing, as are many of our beloved, OG courses.


Without technological advances in the 1700s, 1800s, and early 1900s, we wouldn't have Riviera.


Musselburgh and Prestwick called emailed snapped created a tik tok dance: they want you to know that it's ok.


Because of today's technology, tomorrow's architects will create a great golf course.

[MCirba]

Riviera is one of my very favorite courses on the planet.   Perhaps that's the main reason I react to her being helplessly pummeled like Indian Wells.

RonMon, love you too man but on a planet with rising real estate, shrinking water and resources, and uncontrolled technology in the game of golf, that horse has left the barn.

Unless you're suggesting the next great courses are in the middle of nowhere and 8500 to 9000 yards long to approximate the challenge most of us have loved about golf in past decades, I'm not sure how technology is going to facilitate future great courses?

[MCirba]

V. Kmetz,

I read your other thread about "sophistry" and thought I'd respond here.

Whether we like it or deny it or not, the reality is that the professional game of golf heavily influences how the general public thinks about the game of golf, whether it's the type of conditioning they demand at their home club, or the approach to the game that suggests we need to keep adding distance because this hot-shot kid drove the 350 yard green in the member-guest, or green speeds in the teens.   


I love Riviera and understand what you're saying about ideal conditions, but isn't that almost always the case in Los Angeles in late winter?   Over my 50 years of playing golf the one element that has changed is that at age 63 I drive the ball further, considerably further, than I did in my teens and 20s, and I haven't even been fitted for a driver or played around with launch angles, spin rates, lofts, ball type, etc. to optimize as the pros do.   


I'm glad you're getting a chance to see a wonderful course but bemoan the birdie-fest as ultimately the neutering of a great game.   Enjoy!

[JohnVDB]

Going beyond Riviera, I doubt the PGA Tour has seen a better 7 weeks of weather on the West Coast and Hawaii than they have this year.  There has been almost no wind, no rain and plenty of firm and fast courses with perfect greens because the place isn’t getting lumpy and bumpy.

[Mark Kiely]

Anyone who's played it care to chime in on the strategy of playing 15 up the 17th fairway like Hovland (and a couple others) are doing? What's the advantage? What are they trying to avoid? I've attended several tournaments there and don't recall anything that makes that a particularly difficult driving hole.

[Tal Oz]

Anyone who's played it care to chime in on the strategy of playing 15 up the 17th fairway like Hovland (and a couple others) are doing? What's the advantage? What are they trying to avoid? I've attended several tournaments there and don't recall anything that makes that a particularly difficult driving hole.

Mark,


The fairway bunker on the inside of the dogleg on 15 is a menace. TV flattens everything out, but you can’t see anything when you’re standing in there. I could barely get 9i out and I saw Jordan Spieth hit it ~160y yesterday. Generally 15 also plays into the prevailing wind off the Pacific so the bunker is not really clearable from the tips. Bailing left can quickly get you out of position on approach.


As I see it, Hovland going down 17 eliminates bunkers and tree trouble on approach, plus could slightly shorten the hole. A birdie on 15 is a total bonus so playing the hole in 4 4’s for the week gains you a lot on the field. Perhaps a Hinkle Tree will appear next year?

[Kalen Braley]

So I fired up Google Earth and took a few measurements:

Playing to the 15th fairway on from the back tee on 15:
- At 290-300 yards from the back tee the fairway is only 24-26 yards wide.
- The aforementioned deep & cavernous bunker starts at 280 off the tee and is a 310 carry to clear.

Playing to 17 fairway from 15 back tee:
- 290-300 yards from the tee, the fairway is 34-36 yards wide
- There is no bunker in play with one being easily carried at 230 on the right, and the next one on the left basically unreachable at 325 yards.

If you draw a straight line from the back tee to middle of 15 green, playing via 17 is slightly straighter & shorter line to the green:
- Its 40 yards from this line to the middle of 17 fairway at 280 out.
- But 72 yards from same line to the middle of 15 fairway at 280 out.

P.S.  Agree with Tai, if there aren't a couple trees there next year to prevent this, I'd be shocked.

[Brett Meyer]

I just don't really see a problem with the scoring. One incredibly talented young man is playing some of the best golf of his life and shooting -19. Another is doing the same and shooting -16. There are only 4 other guys lower than -10. It's not like the average score is -19. And this is all in perfect conditions.

The previous scoring record apparently was -20...and that was back in 1985. There's a pretty good chance that no one beats that this year. If you go back and look at the winning scores, they were at least as low in the late 80s/early 90s as they've been the past few years. So I suspect that the scores are dictated primarily by the conditions that week, not these long-run trends like technology, player training, etc.

[Mark_Fine]

We can debate all we want but the original strategy of the course has changed at least for the pros but that can be said at almost every course they play.

[Joe Hancock]

We can debate all we want but the original strategy of the course has changed at least for the pros but that can be said at almost every course they play.

Mark, the pros are the ones who can utilize strategy most often and most consistently, which is why it is so disheartening that the equipment and homogenizing of maintenance has all but eliminated strategy on many courses.

[MCirba]

We can debate all we want but the original strategy of the course has changed at least for the pros but that can be said at almost every course they play.

Correct Mark...it isn't so much how they are scoring (although the field is 206 under par thru 3 rounds) but how they are doing it.

[Carl Johnson]

15 via 17.  How about an internal OB rather than tree planting?  Quick and easy.  Personally, I'd let it go -- do nothing.

[Bruce Katona]

I watched yesterday's (Saturday's) play.  Late in the broadcast the announcing team of Jim & Sir Nick had the opportunity to chat with the Tourament Host, a Mr. Eldrick Woods.  After innudating Mr. Woods about how he's feeling, when and if he'll come back to play this year & Tiger saying its not the golf shots that bother the injured leg, but walking the course, they got around to talking about the play this week and the scoring.


Tiger opined that the ball was going too far and that higher spin rates should be mandated to limit distance. This way the average player and the professional can & would be playing the same ball - the average player doesn't swing hard enough for the higher spin rate balls to impact distance, where the person earning a living at the game does.


I'm liking where this may be heading.

[MCirba]

Bruce,


Excellent. Thanks for sharing