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Paul Gray

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #50 on: July 30, 2015, 03:03:28 PM »
I can't be the only Brit enjoying another reworking of the 'American golf eats itself' thread.  ;D
Or American golf eats British golf as Trump builds and acquires courses in GB&I.


Oh dear. Obviously touched a nationalist nerve. I think quality golf for under a £1,000 per year is probably safe from Trump's meddling for now.
In the places where golf cuts through pretension and elitism, it thrives and will continue to thrive because the simple virtues of the game and its attendant culture are allowed to be most apparent. - Tim Gavrich

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #51 on: July 30, 2015, 03:18:15 PM »
Four weeks ago it was announced that Diageo had sold Gleneagles for £150M.  It had revenue of £43M and profit of £2.5M.  So that is quite a premium to what the Trump golf courses are valued at but it is arguable whether this is an apples to apples comparison.  But I would think that Turnberry and Gleneagles are competitors in the high end Scottish golf resort category and I know companies that have conferences that rotate between these two resorts.

Carl Johnson

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #52 on: July 30, 2015, 03:47:39 PM »
John
. . .

I'd be interested to know though, is their much of a market in the US for UK style clubs with emphasis on the golf and limited and fairly modest clubhouse/food & beverage offerings ?

Niall

Niall, I belong to one such club in North Carolina, USA.  However, based on my personal experience, anecdotal only (no "scientific" study), I would say that we are very much in the minority and that therefore there isn't "much of a market" right now for this type of club in the USA.  However, there is a market, a niche market.


Carl, not sure what your annual costs are at CGC, but there are wonderful courses in the UK where the annual cost for green fees is under £1,000.  I truly wish that's what my base cost was, pre carts, locker, range and handicap, etc.  it's almost impossible to compare the two systems.

For full resident membership $25K up front non-refundable initiation fee and $375 monthly dues and $25/month food min.  There are junior, junior adult and "senior associate" categories that cost less up front.  The initiation fee can be financed, and under certain conditions you can be released from the balance, e.g., your company moves you far away.  I pay about $270 monthly dues as a full resident senior member (and when I first joined years ago the initiation fee was nominal).  If you walk and don't store your clubs at the club, and don't have a locker (fees for all of which are very reasonable), there are no additional costs (no range fee).  There may be a nominal HC fee.  I'm sure that in UK this wouldn't be considered terribly inexpensive, but in our city market, compared to country clubs with all the trimmings, it's a darn good deal.  Agreed that it's difficult to compare our American club approach to that in the UK.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 03:50:55 PM by Carl Johnson »

Brent Hutto

Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #53 on: July 30, 2015, 04:10:51 PM »
 For what it's worth my club is 100 miles from Carl's club  but nowhere near a big city.  Their initiation fee would pay for my initiation plus eight years of golf with plenty left over for buying ProV1's in the pro shop when I need them.  We do have pool, tennis courts and a driving range...none of which have ever used.

 That said we do not have as nice a clubhouse or food service has Carl's club, not even close.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2015, 04:17:02 PM by Brent Hutto »

Niall C

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #54 on: July 30, 2015, 05:18:13 PM »
Four weeks ago it was announced that Diageo had sold Gleneagles for £150M.  It had revenue of £43M and profit of £2.5M.  So that is quite a premium to what the Trump golf courses are valued at but it is arguable whether this is an apples to apples comparison.  But I would think that Turnberry and Gleneagles are competitors in the high end Scottish golf resort category and I know companies that have conferences that rotate between these two resorts.


Wayne


Ignoring Paul's obvious attempts to goad, I think that the high end US model is going to struggle over here simply because there are so many reasonably priced clubs (in comparison to US) with great courses that would effectively compete with the all singing and dancing country club set up so as to put that model out of the game.


Without knowing the details, my perception of Turnberry and Gleneagles is that they depend a lot the corporate market even though they both have members club attached. Membership of those clubs are in line with top end clubs ie. c.£1,500/£2,000 pa subs. Clealry you don't get the spa and the pool for that price but then there's no demand for that sort of thing over here.


Niall

Wayne_Kozun

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #55 on: July 30, 2015, 08:52:38 PM »
I agree Niall - I was just getting back to the Trump aspect of this thread and the discussion around the proper valuation for golf courses.  I am not an expert on Trump but it seems like the high end resort is what he is going after with the Trump course north of Aberdeen and Turnberry - Doonbeg in Ireland is similar to this as well.  And Gleneagles seems like a similar type of course and I would assume that Diageo tried to get Donald to buy Gleneagles.  So maybe you can get a premium for those types of courses.

Rob Marshall

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #56 on: July 30, 2015, 11:05:56 PM »
How limited are members to tee times in The UK and Ireland? Do they sell 50% of the times to outside play or is it much less than that?



If life gives you limes, make margaritas.” Jimmy Buffett

Sean_A

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #57 on: July 31, 2015, 03:35:10 AM »
How limited are members to tee times in The UK and Ireland? Do they sell 50% of the times to outside play or is it much less than that?


Rob


Thats a good question.  I really wouldn't have a clue as to the percentage of tee times taken by visitors at my club.  I suspect as a very general rule, the more famous the club the higher the percentage.  I would be surprised if we hit 10% visitor times including societies and non-club (county, national and pro) competitions. A huge number of "local" clubs would love to attract more visitors, but its quite a competitive market for societies, large parties and small groups...hence the massive discounting by a lot of local clubs. 


Carl


Your numbers would place CGC at the very highest end of golf in GB&I. 


Ciao
New plays planned for 2025: Ludlow, Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

Thomas Dai

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #58 on: July 31, 2015, 04:07:45 AM »
How limited are members to tee times in The UK and Ireland? Do they sell 50% of the times to outside play or is it much less than that?


Also worth considering is the number of amateur/handicap Open competitions held by GB&I clubs. These have increased quite considerably over the years to be more than just Golf Weeks at a few clubs here and there. There is also more of a trend developing for multi-course multi-day Open events. See Golfempire - http://www.golfempire.co.uk/ - for specific details.


atb

Carl Johnson

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Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #59 on: July 31, 2015, 10:16:00 AM »
How limited are members to tee times in The UK and Ireland? Do they sell 50% of the times to outside play or is it much less than that?

. . .

Carl

Your numbers would place CGC at the very highest end of golf in GB&I.  . . .

Ciao

I don't doubt it.  I understand that many UK clubs allow outside visitor play for a per-round fee, or a fee for multiple rounds, and that that lowers the cost for "members."  I have no idea of how the numbers work out, and/or how having lots of "visitors" affects the value to "members," but this is not a common model in the USA (today) and may account for the higher cost of private clubs here.

Right now I think it's tough to paint a picture of the U.S. market.  We have traditional clubs, stand-alone, like the one I belong to and which for an urban course is relatively inexpensive.  We've got municipal courses, private for-profit daily fee courses, traditional suburban clubs in our area that are much less expensive than ours (e.g., http://www.rollinghillscountryclub.org/), and "resort courses" (daily fee, but usually expensive).  A relatively new phenomenon in our area is courses/clubs that were built in connection with higher-end residential developments, went through bankruptcy, and are now with second owners.

I have two friends that belong to two of these clubs, for which they simply pay an annual fee for annual memberships, which they deem to be reasonable.  Here's one of the clubs. http://www.theclubatlongview.com/club/scripts/library/view_document.asp?NS=MEMBERSHIP&DN=MEMBERSHIP_GOLF  My friend joined this club (which may not have gone through bankruptcy, but which had hard times) because he said it was more economical than my club.

Here's one that did go through bankruptcy and is even less expensive per year.   http://www.thepalisadescc.com/  Both friends are very happy with their decisions for now. The difficulty would seem to be that their current models are not sustainable long-term.  They'll either fold or get enough permanent members that year-to-year dues-only option will be eliminated.  For now they're just trying to hang on.  Two more, both of which I've visited recently: http://cramermountainclub.com/club/scripts/public/public.asp and http://www.skybrookgolf.com/index.php
« Last Edit: July 31, 2015, 01:24:47 PM by Carl Johnson »

Brent Hutto

Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #60 on: July 31, 2015, 10:44:49 AM »
  A relatively new phenomenon in are area is courses/clubs that were built in connection with higher-end residential developments, went through bankruptcy, and are now with second owners.


That seems to be the type that are saturating my local market at the moment. All these places 15 years ago were struggling already because there's only so many people in Columbia, SC looking for a $200-$300 commitment (plus $15-20/round for the required cart) to play a housing development course. And there were 2x to 3x as many of those as there were potential members to go around. So even during the final years of the "boom" they were typically running in place trying to keep up with their operating expenses plus debt load.


Now a lot of them (most of them) have been through either bankruptcy or a fire sale of some type. So they're doing month-to-month or year-to-year deals for the equivalent of about half what they were charging in the early 2000's with no buy-in required. And they are sitting empty or nearly so outside of peak season, weekend morning and their shrinking men's club of retirees. One such place is right next door to the club I belonged to for 10 years and last I heard you could get an all-you-can-play-including-cart deal there for something like $160/month. I think they were even throwing in free hamburgers and hotdogs for lunch on weekdays or some such.


So a deal like that, even at a course which they can't afford to maintain properly, is for the moment a great deal for those 5 day/week retired guys who always use carts and want to play M-F at 9am. They pay their $160/month, play every day and even with buying a beer or two after the round their per-round cost is down to something like 10-12 bucks at a formerly "private club".

Between that and the occasional/casual golfers playing their 3 rounds a month for $30 (with cart) via GolfNow you really don't have many suckers like me and you left who are looking to shell out a couple hundred bucks a month, plus extras, every month rain or shine just to get a little better golf experience.


Heck it's gotten so bad my former club will accept any and all comers for an "introductory" deal of $1,500 for one year, billed monthly at that. So alongside the $300/month guys who paid initiation fees plus years of assessment and other nickel and dime stuff you have incomers who are paying $125/month and that includes golf for all members of the family, use of the pool for the kids and all the amenities. I guess they're banking on a large proportion of them sticking around and tripling their cost starting in Month 13 but that seems a low probability thing to me. There will be some other place offer incentives next year and they can just go get their cheap golf there!


All that said, I'm not so sure I'm hoping for a bunch of those walking-dead clubs/courses/developments to go under sooner rather than later. If I wanted to save a bunch of money (and were willing to ride in a golf cart and play a slowly decaying course) I could certainly go do that myself. And I don't really think those places going away are going to bring droves of folks into my club to pay initiation and dues.


At the local level, my dilemma as always revolves around the fact that I always walk when I play. For starters, many of the public and some of the semi-private clubs will not allow me to do that on their course. So my pool of choices is restricted. The other is that most of the good deals are predicated on cheap golf for someone who is already going to ride in a cart.


Even at the very, very reasonable cost club of which I'm a member the modest yearly dues (well under $3,000/year) aren't the only big ticket item for most members. They play 6, 8, 10 times a month (more for retirees) at $20 a pop for a cart. So those guys get siphoned off to the "all you can eat" cart-included places which are just a fabulous deal. I actually couldn't save much money at all by playing one of those places because even at $160/month including cart that's maybe 30% less than my cost to walk and play a much, much nicer course.


To me the key things working against my interests long term are the fallout from the extreme overbuilding of those residential development courses and the fact that everything about the current golf market (locally for me) is structured around near universal golf cart usage. In the long run I fear the only places left standing when the shakeout is complete will be courses I don't care for that are priced to seem like a good deal for those who expect to rent a cart for every round. And worst case, eventually the last place in town that will allow me to walk on a Saturday morning in May will decide to go carts-only.


But at least the current unstable situation provides all of us with options. And if my home club hasn't started requiring golf carts yet after being there for nearly a century, then hopefully they won't do it while I'm still alive. In which case I'm set!

Wayne_Kozun

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: "Trump's $550M golf empire may be in the weeds"
« Reply #61 on: February 14, 2022, 11:28:40 PM »
Looks like this story is not over:
Quote
Still, in her court filing last month, Ms. James highlighted potential misleading statements about the value of at least six Trump properties, including golf clubs in Westchester County, N.Y., and Scotland, as well as Mr. Trump’s own penthouse home in Trump Tower.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/14/nyregion/mazars-trump-organization-financial-statements.html?referringSource=articleShare