CC of Scranton

[mark chalfant]

I would appreciate opinions on this Travis course.....

How is the routing ?
What holes are  memorable ?
how are the par 3s  and  par 5s  ?
green complexes  ?

 thanks  !!

[wsmorrison]

Perhaps Ian Andrew will reply.  He has been contracted to do work at the course.  I have not seen the course.  They just held the PA Amateur July 28-30.  It is a par 72 and the average score for the tournament was 76.

[Mark Studer]

I was able to see cc of scranton while officiating the pa state am last week........WOW! what a great piece of  land . The putting greens are terrific and have been recently(last fall) been mowed out  closer to their original sizes and shapes. There has been some very good work, as well ,in getting healthier turf....the start  to tree removal, especially conifers, around green complexes and teeing grounds...mind you, a good start, but still only a start.  Each green is full featured and individualistic. If the club continues its restoration efforts it can become a special  course with those  undulating Travis  greens.They are planning to restore the fairway widths as budgets allow. Maybe Tom Paul can add some incite about this great layout. We worked together last week.Their supt. is on top of it and is making some nice strides within budget.

[ian]

Here is some information, an update on what's going on, and a little opinion......
There has been a great deal of tree removal to return to a course that was built around the surrounding views. The later plan illustrates this very well. Below is the 11th from my first visit two summers ago

The 11th currently with the tree removal completed. The mounding was not original but added due to the starkness after the trees coming out. The mounding sizes and shapes are a series of copies from Stafford and Lookout Point. They are fescued like the originals.

The origional plan by Travis for perspective. The bunkering and mounding for the bunkers are taken directly from this plan and the plan below.

The old ariel photo, which works well with the Travis plan to provide all the clues nessassary.

Why is this a great course? The greens, 15 original Travis greens that are collectively better than any other Travis greens I have seen (I've not seen all the courses yet). The 7th green site with its double swale, is a very unique green. The front pin can only be approached with a bounce in.

The 8th hole, a short 300 yard hole that saw a lot of 5's due to the green contour.

The 18th green with the enormous ridgelines running through the green. This is one of the most intresting greens I have seen. Remember it is hard to show up and contours in a photo!


How is the routing ? Honestly, good with a couple of great drop in fours (6,7,10)
What holes are  memorable (6,7,8,10,13 are the best, note they are all fours!
how are the par 3s very good with two very long threes and two great mid length threes. #3 is the best
 and  par 5s  ? quite weak due to a major lack of length
green complexes  ? I'm not saying this lightly! Some of the greatest in golf. Looking accross the 11th and up the 10th hole. Not the mounding and roll-offs

[T_MacWood]

Very interesting. The old photo shows a very wild course....the fairways look extremely wide and full of interesting options.

The bunkering I must say looks different in the modern pictures. They appear a little shallow and without the distinctive grass faces. The 8th green looks crazy...I can only imagine what it looks like in person.

[ian]

Tom,

The bunkers have been altered and the club plans on going back to where they started from. I will post a few pictures of the bunkers that have gone back in on the 14th hole tonight.


Ian

[T_MacWood]

Ian
My mistake the green I was looking at was the 7th. What is also interesting about the old photo, there are several holes that appear to have singular trees incorporated into the design...is that still the case?

[ian]

The 8th is actually a very wild green, unfortunately I have no photo.

Some of the holes such as 15 still play around the original old oaks, and 14 has a willow instead of a large oak (not quite in the same place). The oak on 12 is still there too, come to think about it.

Ian

[ian]

Some images that I said I would post.

This is the first bunker complex completed on the outside of the 14th hole

This is the hole from the tee, with the outside bunker and mounds returned

The trees on 15 for Tom M

[TEPaul]

Ian:

Let's talk about the 14th hole at C.C. of Scranton. I spent a ton of time on that hole last week and have also been scratching my head over Travis's original design of that hole with the alternate fairway out to the right (where all the fescue now is). I understand you're thinking of adding some tee length to the hole which would be a good thing considering how many of the contestants in the Pa Amateur played the hole. I'm trying to figure out if there wouldnt be an interesting way of reworking those three separated fairway areas (Travis) to make sense today for either the long play or even the short player. If you stand out in the middle of that fescue field you can see that's a mighty fine angle to come into that green!

Also you should know that those "separated" or "interrupted" fairway areas are very likely the Pine Valley influence (a course Travis had ideas for and was around alot). There's no question in our minds (Wayne and me) that what we have been calling the "segmented" fairways that Flynn got so heavily into designing was a result of the Pine Valley influence on him. That fact was sort of confirmed to us when we looked at one of his Mid-Atlantic designs that actually advertised that fairway concept. On the bottom of the course design he called it "The new "interrupted" fairway concept".

Five of Travis original holes at C.C. of Scranton have those "interrupted" fairway sections--all the par 5s and two of the longest par 4s!

[Eric Pevoto]

Ian,

Thanks for posting the photos.  That old aerial is wonderful.

As you may remember, my in-laws are members and I've been playing Scranton for the 8, 9 or so years that my wife and I have been together.  It's disappointing to hear them say they think the course is now just easier than before (trees that served as penalty are now gone   ).  I don't think the full intent of the project has been communicated.

In my mind, the greens have been the strongest point of the place.  The most interesting greens have been mentioned already.  The eighth is another, socked into the hillside with a central fronting bunker and a fun little pocket back left.  

Despite that photo of the eighth, I had never realized the golf course suffered from any overgrowth of trees or loss of width.  In the years I've played it, the rough has never been terribly tall, and so the penalty for playing into rough away from greater trouble has never been that great.  After seeing the old aerial, I realize now that those angles, restored as fairway, will further highlight the quality of the greens.

The fourteenth, a shortish par 5, is a great example.  If that field of fescue were fairway, the angles and interest on every shot become that much greater.  That road at greenside is a factor if you are playing from the left corner of the fairway.  Believe me, I've hit it onto the road more than once in going for the green on my second shot.  The restored fairway essentially brings the road into play on every shot.

The 11th looks great!  Keep up the good work, Ian.

I'm forwarding the aerial to my father in law right now.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

As for the rough at C.C. of Scranton there's a quite generous swath of relatively light rough but then outside of that is some really wild fescue that's laying down now and really hard to find one's ball in. The fescue areas are so penal that the membership plays all of it as red-lined lateral hazard areas.

This created a bit of a problem during the Pa State Amateur because we didn't want to play the fescue that way and had to try as best as possible to remove the red lines before play started (unfortunately you just can't get rid of all traces of the red-lines).

We did have notification on the "Conditions of Competition" sheet that the fescue areas that had vestiges of red lines were NOT played as lateral but there's always a real danger that many of the players won't read the "Conditions of Competition" Sheet. The starters informed the player of this condition but there's always the problem that some players aren't really paying attention just before they tee off. But as far as I know no player played the fescue areas incorrectly or failed to correct their mistake and got DQed. We did have all these areas pretty well covered with officials though.

But on #14 it would be interesting to return that fescue field to that old Travis alternate fairway somehow. It would have to be carefully analyzed now as to exactly how it would work for various levels of players--also given the tee length they plan to add to that hole.

But as the hole is now, and in the Pa Amateur, the hole was pretty confusing off the tee for most of the players during the first or even some of the later rounds. C.C. of Scranton apparently removed some trees that were along the right side of the hole so there's now no definition at all as to where to aim one's tee shot and some of those guys are really long. In the first round the tendency was not to aim or go far enough left--and some of the really long hitter were going straight over the bunkers in the middle and driving it onto or over the cart path and way out into that fescue field on the right!

If the club or Ian were to consider somehow restoring that alternate fairway in the fescue field out on the right the first thing they DEFINITELY have to do is shift the cart path over to the left side of the hole.

I kind of hate to make an architectural recommendation on the hole at this point but in my opinion those interesting and very radical looking Travis mounds they just restored on the hole are probably way too far to the right to make much strategic sense unless the purpose of them is simply to catch a poor shot sort of sliced way right off the tee or to create some kind of general definition as to were to drive the ball--particularly for short hitters.

One thought might be to rearrange the tee shot bunkers in the middle somehow to make a right/left decision off the tee more of a consideration--or possibly a couple of alleys or carry options. The other thing that could be done is to restore the fairway in the fescue field but to bring that fairway section more into play as an option for shorter hitters or even extremely long ones and to up it's use by shorter players for a second shot option by extending the end of it much farther down the hole and removing the beginning of the third section of Travis's fairway so as to make carrying over into that on the second shot more demanding distance-wise (that way the restored alternate fairway would be more of a conservative option on the second shot for some as the third section would be a bit more demanding to reach although still very tempting!).

There's also the question of the willow tree on the left and my recommendation on that would be to leave it until all this has been worked out. I'm no fan of trees exactly, particularly willow trees on a hole like that but in fairness one should admit that right now for players like some of those long hitters in the Pa Amateur that willow tree is highly, HIGHLY strategic off the tee shot as it relates to their second shots!!

Ian gave me a copy of his very detailed plan and I can see that all the bunkers on the tee shot on that hole are slated to be returned to the Travis mound bunkers and such that were original. This is a very good thing. They're radical looking (the photo above of a set of them on #14 is apparently a test)--no doubt about that--but they really are examples of architectural features of a particular era and a particular interesting architect and it's impressive that the membership of the C.C. of Scranton are willing to go back to that look because there's no doubt in my mind that members of other clubs would scream bloody murder if features that look like that were restored. What I'm saying is I'm really impressed with what the C.C. of Scranton is about to do with those Travis mounds and bunkers.

My hat is off to Ian, and Carrick Design, to Greg Armstrong (the super), and Ward (the golf and green chairman) and the membership.

But ultimately the thing that really makes the C.C of Scranton shine is those green surfaces---many of them truly are something else!!

[Eric Pevoto]

Tom,

At Downingtown CC, we dealt with the same fescue situation at any GAP or USGA event:  laterals for everday play, through the green for events.  

That willow, just beyond the left corner, is definitely significant. If you look at the old photo, the trees are much more centrally placed than appear today, there was more fairway left.  Interesting that there is no bunker complex at the left corner in the old shot, too.

Not to change the subject, but just look at the width and split fairway at 17!  Back when Ian sent me that old plan, those "island" of fairway justed jumped out at me.  With the downhill tee shot and land falling to the left, that hole now is a very challenging, long two shotter.  I could be wrong, but it looks like Travis intended for it to be one of those fun "tweener" type 4/5 par.

[TEPaul]

Eric:

I hadn't really looked that closely at that old aerial--but I just did and it's pretty amazing when it comes to fairway width. Among other things it appears the course was not built with the "segmented" or "interrupted" fairway sections, at least not as they appeared on Travis's original course drawing which Greg Armstrong gave me a copy of when I was last there.

That's by no means unusual. Most of Flynn's designs that included "interrupted" or segmented and separated fairway sections appear not to have been built that way or to have not lasted very long that way.

But look at the width of #18 fairway on that aerial. The fairway area looks to be more than 50% as wide as it is long. That's interesting as it certainly does matter where you try to come into certain sections of that green from!

But #14 fairways does not really appear in that aerial to be that much like the Travis design of it I have.

[ian]

Tom,

I have run into the segmented fairways on many Travis plans, to this date I have not been able to confirm one where "only" long grass seperated the landing areas. Where the raised "dune"/"waste was built there was seperation; and of course, by more traditional bunkering. By the way there is raised bunkers on the plan that were built as conventional bunkers. There are examples of the dune bunkers, but that's off topic.

Renovation is full of shades of grey when it comes to accuracy, this was the most likely look for #14 on opening day; therefore we followed the aeriel for #14.

The tough choice is when to renovate (restore?) to. Do you pick a day? Do you follow the original intent? Do you pick a date that evolution produced the best look? Do you shoot for opening day? Do you pick a little of all?

To be honest I don't have an answer myself.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

My answer--at least on a hole like #14 C.C. Scranton, is you take that fascinating (and radical) Travis bunker mound look and you place it back on the midbody of that hole in conjuction with the way he actually designed that hole on paper with the rough areas separating three segmented fairway sections in such a way that it makes for the most interest and makes the most sense for all the players today who'll use that course. It certainly doesn't have to get placed back in the exact same way or spots he had them if that doesn't work as well for today's players!

I'd even recommend that back tee extension but also you should suggest that just for variety even very good players like the State am players should play that hole both from the shorter present tips sometimes and the new planned back tips sometimes. All that would create wonderful variety as well as complexity on that hole--it would make it very maleable and most interesting.

But from the present tip tees you need to figure out a way where restoring that old right segment fairway works for good players on their tee shots (make them gamble somehow to get there) and also for lesser players on their second shots (much farther down that right segment!). Just go stand out there in the middle of that fescue field and look how well that sets up a shot to that green! Even if there isn't interesting topography out there in the fescue (it's pretty flat) a great angle can be just as important or valuable, or more so, than great topography or natural feature!

[TEPaul]

I guess what I might be saying is the best way to set up the mid-body of that hole with the bunker/mounds and the separated fairway sections would be dictated somehow by putting the strong players off the present back tips sometimes for one set of problems and solutions and off the new proposed back tips for another set of problems and solutions (given the bunker/mounds and dimensions of the separated fairway sections).

But the additional kicker will be that all this variety will really fall into place when you have the strong players on the NEW proposed back tees you move the rest of the players to tees near or on where the present back tips now are. That way you'll create true potential variety and interest on that hole with the placement of those Travis mound/bunkers and those separated fairway sections dimensions!

[ian]

I agree with you on the angle being a really great look at that green.

I found that during the state am. , they players simple overpowered the hole (and all the other fives too). They also began to take the ball left of the willow in the last round when they realized that was possible. They were hitting mid irons into the longest of the fives! The hole is one of the easy holes to return the original landing area by going 30-40 yards back and bringing all the carry bunkers back into play on the left.

While I understand how the Travis plan presents an interesting set of options, do remember the islands are not visible from the tee. Those were intended as options for the second shot and not the tee shot!

[mark chalfant]

Mark S,   Tom,   Wayne,  Eric, and   Ian

Thanks for your thoughtful  replies !!

 Mark.

[coniferator]

MANY A CLUB CAN LEARN FOM THE FINE TREE MANAGEMENT HERE

Nein, meine Freunde!  It's merely a good start!  

[Mark Studer]

If you read our comments from august, we made it clear that it was only a START to a tree removal program, but a good start  WITHIN  budget. During the state amateur there, I invited the sup't and green chair (and his committee) to visit Oakmont to see first hand what phases 2,3 and 4 of the tree program would reveal. We have not scheduled the visit yet, but it will confirm that the club is taking the right first steps to show off Travis'  workmanship and flair for building greens with character and the "fun" factor too. Turf health will also be improved  some more.

[Jason Hines]

Ian,

I started this thread late and the photos are x'ed out on this thread, can you reset them?

Jason

[ian]

Bill,

I just realized that I missed your question about the greens that are not origional. The 4th, 5th and 11th are all not origional. They are all very flat comapred with the wild undulations of the other greens. The plan is to find someone in the club (so far hasn't gone well), an old photo (no luck as of yet), or old construction plans (he did do them) to try and recreate the origional greens.

This will make you feel better Bill, the trees have begun to fall again.

Good luck at Lehigh, that is a really great course.