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Tom Buggy

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New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« on: February 01, 2022, 03:23:45 PM »
Phil Young's new book, The Tillinghast Chronicles, Volume II, claims that A.W. Tillinghast's first known original design was the Kingston Golf Club. The name of this New York club was changed to The Twaalfskill Club in 1902, the year in which the golf course opened. This, of course, is in contrast with the commonly held belief that the 1909-1911 Shawnee Country Club course in Pennsylvania was Tilly's first design. The Young book devotes a chapter to the rationale for the Kingston Golf Club claim. A significant part of the rationale is that Tillinghast himself listed the Kingston Golf Club as one of his original nine-hole designs in a 1926 advertising brochure. The chapter also contains supporting information gleaned from contemporaneous club meeting records and newspaper reporting.

Mark Molyneux

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2022, 09:46:39 PM »
Tom!


Interesting! As a member of the Tillinghast Association way back when, I always understood that Shawnee was Tillie's first design. with Kingston GC isn't even listed as an AWT design in The Course Beautiful. Circa 1902, Tillie would've been in his late 20s with a developing sense of what a memorable design ought to include so I don't think we can just rule out the possibility that he designed or built something prior to Shawnee but there are a few questions that need to be asked. If he created something before 1911, why would there be a 9-year lapse without any known architectural work? 2. Does the Kingston design include anything that might suggest he was the originator, like a moat hole... a double dogleg... something influenced by Old Tom Morris? 3. Is it possible that Tillie's claims regarding Kingston may have been utilized for advertising purposes or self-promotion.


I'm going to have to go looking for this (presumably new?) book. Tillinghast is such a fascinating character! I want to know all there is to know about him.


Richard Wolffe and Bob Trebus have been the quintessential authorities for me on all things Tillinghast. I believe they are still at Baltusrol. Their books are superb!

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2022, 02:09:25 AM »
Anything that Phil Young introduces that is a supposed new insight seems highly suspicious after the past few frauds he attempted to pass off.  Hopefully, this one is on the level.

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2022, 08:23:17 AM »
Mark Molyneux: Phil Young asked me to post the following reply to your post. (He is waiting for his new membership to be processed.) .......... Tom Buggy
Mark, 
[/size]
[/size]You raise some interesting questions, so let me see if I can answer them for you. Back in 2003-4 when I became a member of the Tillinghast Association, the list of “known courses” were approximately 60. Yet in 1934, Tilly wrote that he had designed and built “several hundred golf courses to that time. Based on that, I’d say that there were many more unknown Tilly courses than known. The courses listed in the book The Course Beautiful, were as complete a list that could be made at the time Rick, Stu & Bob were working on it. Without their work, mine would never have been possible. 
[/size]
[/size]In the new book of mine that Tom referenced, Tillinghast Volume II: The Golf Courses of A. W. Tillinghast, I identify more than 240 courses that Tilly worked on that can be positively identified based on contemporary sources available to the general public. In Tilly’s 1926 advertising brochure, he lists the Kingston Golf Club as an original nine-hole course that he designed. So there is no doubt that he designed a new golf course for the club. The question is when did he design it. 
[/size]
[/size]In the Club’s Board minutes of, 1902, shared with me by the Twaaflskill club who allowed me to use it in my research, on April 9th the Kingston Golf Club signed a lease to build a new 9-hole course on land owned by the Montrepose Cemetery Association. Six weeks later, on May 21st, the members of the Kingston Golf Club voted to disband and agreed to turn over the newly signed lease to build the new 9-hole course that had been approved on that land. They also took over the lease for the land from Kingston and all of that Club’s other financial obligations. 
[/size]
[/size]And so, the Kingston Golf Club went out of existence. A new Kingston Golf Club was formed in the early 1930s, but since Tilly’s advertising brochure that listed the Kingston Golf Club course as his design was published in early 1926, that certainly couldn’t have been what he was referring to. That means that the only moment in history when Tilly could have designed the course for the Kingston Golf Club was in the spring of 1902.   
[/size]
[/size]You asked, “if he created something before 1911, why would there be a 9-year lapse without any known architectural work?” As seen above, that a course that he designed wasn’t known by us doesn’t mean he didn’t design it, rather, that we simply didn’t know it. Actually, Kingston wasn’t the only course he designed before Shawnee. In my feature interview with Ran for this month, I refer to his redesign of the existing 9-holes and adding an additional 9 holes to the course of the Belmont Golf Club. He designed it in 1905 and it was ready for play in 1906. There are also other courses that were designed/redesigned by Tilly prior to Shawnee, possibly as far back as 1898. More research is needed with several possible ones being worked on now. 
[/size]
[/size]You also asked, “Does Kingston include anything that might suggest he was the originator, like a Moat hole… a double-dogleg… something influenced by Old Tom Morris?” No Moat hole, nor a double-dogleg as he didn’t come up with that concept until the mid-teens. His first hole of this type was the redesign of the 7th hole at Pine Valley which he wrote about in Golf Illustrated’s August 1917 issue and again in the May, 1933 issue. 
[/size]
[/size]You also asked, “Is it possible that Tilly’s claims regarding Kingston may have been utilized for advertising purposes or self-promotion?” No, and for a variety of reasons. When one considers the numerous world-class courses included in the 1926 brochure that mentioned Kingston, the idea that it was listed would have been used for as a promotional standpoint is simply not reasonable. The first four clubs/courses mentioned alone are: Winged Foot, Baltusrol, Philly Cricket and Baltimore CC. And even these courses had yet to host a major championship when this was published. 
[/size]
[/size]If you send me an email at phil@goldenageresearch.com, I can provide you with the information as to how to get a copy of this very new book, one of four separate volumes under the main title, The Tillinghast Chronicles, that comprise some 2,011 pages between them. 
[/size]
[/size]Hopefully this answers your questions. 


Bret Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2022, 03:34:12 PM »
Tom,


Does the chapter on Twaalfskill (Kingston) mention that Lawrence Van Etten was a member of the club?  I just wonder if this fact changes the accuracy of the circumstantial evidence presented. Did Tillinghast have a working relationship with Van Etten?  It’s interesting that many of the courses Van Etten is given credit for designing in the late 1890’s, early 1900’s are courses that Tillinghast visited later on.


Bret

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2022, 05:26:24 PM »
Bret,
Lawrence Van Etten is not mentioned. Lawrence's brother, Judge John G. Van Etten, who was the club's Grounds Chairman, is mentioned as the one who most likely oversaw construction of the course. There's a newspaper reference that states: "Judge John G. Van Etten helped in setting up the Twaalfskill layout...." I have no information about a relationship between Tillinghast and Lawrence Van Etten  at the time the 1902 course was built.

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2022, 05:45:21 PM »
John Jacob Astor who went down on the Titanic was a member of Twaalfskill, as well.   The club released a touching tribute in the days following his death, something to the effect that he "personified the virtues of the American man".   



"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Marty Bonnar

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2022, 04:24:32 PM »
Is there any chat about the Marsfield Club in any if this? It’s mentioned on the ‘About Us’ page of the Twaalfskill website, ‘dating from 1873’.
Cheers,
F.
The White River runs dark through the heart of the Town,
Washed the people coal-black from the hole in the ground.

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2022, 08:43:40 PM »
Marty Bonnar,
The references to 1873 and Marsfield on the Twaalfskill Club website have been shown to be incorrect. Local historical associations have determined that 1873 is not a date, but rather a print run number of a postcard that also includes the Marsfield name. The associations have not found any connection between the name Marsfield and the Twaalfskill Club. I have informed the club of the incorrect website information and anticipate that corrections will be made. There is no content in the Phil Young book about 1873 or Marsfield.

Peter Pallotta

Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2022, 10:14:20 PM »
I'm glad to see that Phil has continued with his research and writing since the last time he was here, and it's good to welcome him back now as a participant -- he has much to offer.
Best
Peter 

Sean_A

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2022, 05:24:07 AM »
I'm glad to see that Phil has continued with his research and writing since the last time he was here, and it's good to welcome him back now as a participant -- he has much to offer.
Best
Peter


+1


Ciao
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2022, 07:34:16 AM »
It's nice to be back. Tom was correct about Marsfield not having anything to do with Twaalfskill. I was concentrating on Tilly's design for Kingston and when it could have taken place. Tilly listed Kingston as an original nine-hole design in his January, 1926 tri-fold advertising brochure, it was not did Tilly design a new course for Kingston, but when did it take place?


Kingston only had two golf courses during its short existence with the 1st one having been built in 1898 and this new one in 1902. Between Tilly being in Scotland and laying out the "rudimentary course in Frankford Park" when he came back and spending the summer teaching the game to the local patrons of the park, he could not have designed the first course. 


Since he could only have designed it in 1902, and with the club going out of existence that May, and with Twallfskill immediately taking over the lease on the property and the building of the golf course, we can surmise two things. First, that Tilly had to have designed it just before this decision to combine with Twaalfskill took place and that Tilly had nothing to do with building it. As Judge Van Etten was mentioned in the board minutes as chairman of the Green Committee, it seems only reasonable that he was responsible for the building of the course. This is borne out by an article in the Kingston Daily Freeman dated October 10th, 1971 that stated, "Judge John G. Van Etten helped in setting up the Twaalfskill layout and for many years it reigned as the golf and social center of Ulster County."
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 07:42:05 AM by Phil Young »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2022, 08:10:32 AM »
I'm not doubting you Phil, I have no knowledge of this. But an article 69 years later is hardly primary evidence.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2022, 08:34:19 AM »
Adam, I completely agree with you. The 1971 article only shows that someone believed that Judge Van Etten served in that capacity. There is nothing contemporaneous that I could find to prove or disprove what it states. Hence my chapter states, "As chairman of the Green Committee, Judge John G. Van Etten was most likely responsible for this." Someone had to oversee its construction. I wish there was a good deal more information out there about the club and Tilly's design of its course. Tom Buggy has done outstanding research on this and I greatly valued his opinions while I wrote the final version of the chapter. 
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 04:06:09 PM by Phil Young »

Adam Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2022, 08:49:12 AM »
Adam, I completely agree with you. The 1971 article only shows that someone believed that Judge Van Etten served in that capacity. There is nothing contemporaneous that I could find to prove or disprove what it states. Hence my chapter states, "As chairman of the Green committee, Judge John G. Van Etten was most likely responsible for this." Someone had to oversee its construction. I wish there was a good deal more information out there about the club and Tilly's design of its course. Tom Buggy has done outstanding research on this and I greatly valued his opinions while I wrote the final version of the chapter. 


Yeah, I understand. A shortage of primary sources is a real issue for golf course historians
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Bret Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2022, 09:22:01 AM »
What if Kingston, NY was a typo on the 1926 brochure?  Is there any other hard evidence that ties Tillinghast to Twaalfskill in 1902? Are all these speculations based on that one line on the 1926 brochure?

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2022, 10:00:42 AM »
Hi Brett,


It doesn't seem reasonable to be a typo. The brochure states, "Kingston Golf Club, Kingston N.Y." That is far too specific to be a typo, especially as the listing of golf clubs/courses appears to have been done randomly. They are in neither alphabetical nor date order or order of any kind. C believe that Tilly dictated the courses to his secretary in that order and that she looked up the locations and filled them in. He was far too busy with his course design and building work at that time to create a brochure like that on his own. He certainly had the office staff to take care of doing it. 

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2022, 10:18:50 AM »
Doesn't seem unreasonable that the brochure was actually referring to Twaalfskill.  Wouldn't have been the first time the name of the location was transposed as the name of a club.


If that was the case, couldn't whatever Tillie did have taken place anytime up to 1926?



Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2022, 10:29:31 AM »
Hi Sven.

No, because whether he was referring to Kingston or Twaalfskill, because the club never designed a new course between 1902 and 1926 and on down to this very day. As their website states, "Although some changes to the course layout have been made, since its official opening in 1903, the course has kept much of its charm." Tom Buggy would be far aware of what those specific changes were, but whatever they may have been, a new course wasn't designed and built, and that is what Tilly stated that he did for Kingston in his brochure.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 10:32:53 AM by Phil Young »

Bret Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2022, 10:39:31 AM »
Hi Brett,


It doesn't seem reasonable to be a typo. The brochure states, "Kingston Golf Club, Kingston N.Y." That is far too specific to be a typo, especially as the listing of golf clubs/courses appears to have been done randomly. They are in neither alphabetical nor date order or order of any kind. C believe that Tilly dictated the courses to his secretary in that order and that she looked up the locations and filled them in. He was far too busy with his course design and building work at that time to create a brochure like that on his own. He certainly had the office staff to take care of doing it.


Phil,


People make mistakes.  Even people that pay close attention to details can write a typo.  Look at how you spelled my name.  I admire your research, but the words you use to get your point across can be considered insulting to peoples intelligence.  You have a very strong bias that you want this to be a Tillinghast course.  Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t?  If you want to prove it, prove it, don’t speculate.  We are all smart enough to see what the facts are.  The facts are that nobody knows who designed this course in 1902. 


How long was the course in 1902, what was the par for the course in 1902?  How do we know this course didn’t change between 1902 and 1926 if we can’t find any old articles about it? Are we putting all of our trust in their website?  We had to fix Dutchers website claims already, must we go down the line of all the Dutchess and Ulster County courses?  I don’t mind when people speculate.  That seems like a reasonable thing to do when you conduct research, but your speculation should be open for debate.  You can’t put the blinders on and claim your speculation as fact because of a few coincidences.. 




Bret

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2022, 02:12:06 PM »
Hi Sven.

No, because whether he was referring to Kingston or Twaalfskill, because the club never designed a new course between 1902 and 1926 and on down to this very day. As their website states, "Although some changes to the course layout have been made, since its official opening in 1903, the course has kept much of its charm." Tom Buggy would be far aware of what those specific changes were, but whatever they may have been, a new course wasn't designed and built, and that is what Tilly stated that he did for Kingston in his brochure.

Plus, the meeting records show clearly that it was the the Kingston Golf Club that took the initiative to produce the new course. It was the club which was about to lose its previous property, identified the new property, and initiated lease activity for the new property. Thus, it is most likely that it was the Kingston Golf Club that would have initiated the design activity for the course. Then, after it was decided to to form a new club named Twaalfskill, with essentially the same membership, the records show that activity  was related to finalizing the course, i.e. consummating the lease and constructing the course.

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2022, 04:02:27 PM »
Brett,
My apologies for my typo, but that actually shows the point. There are an awful lot of letters in "Kingston Golf Club, Kingston, NY" for it to be a simple typo.
You stated, “I don’t mind when people speculate.  That seems like a reasonable thing to do when you conduct research, but your speculation should be open for debate.” I completely agree with that point. This conclusion of mine should be open for debate. I welcome it, but debating the validity of a conclusion should also be based on facts not “maybes” such as “What if Kingston was a typo on the 1926 brochure?”


So let’s consider some facts. In the September, 1934 issue of Golf Illustrated, Tilly wrote that he had “been for thirty years very actively engaged in golf course architecture.” That statement alone proves that Shawnee, which he began working on in 1909, could not have been his first golf course. So which course was, and his phrase “actively engaged” certainly implies there to have been more than one before Shawnee. In an effort to identify these, and as many other golf courses that haven’t been recognized as being the work of Tilly as is possible, that is why I spent a number of years trying to define them, always based on fact and not by any bias.


I was committed to that because I had already made that mistake in the case of Kingston some 15 years prior when Lou Chanin approached me with the idea that Tilly designed the new course for Kingston in 1902. He believed it was on a specific date that Tilly was on site and I was able to disprove that with a newspaper article that showed that he was elsewhere. That is where bias stepped in, something I deeply regret to this day. My bias? That I accepted what had been told me about Tilly, that Shawnee was his first design. I simply couldn’t accept that there had been others before it, yet he clearly stated that there were in his 1934 statement. It was some years later, after reading that and other similar statements by Tilly such as one that had him “giving advice to club’s boards on possible changes to their courses” at the turn of the century, that I recognized my mistake. And so, I have made a conscious effort to not make conclusions in a biased way in any of the more than 240 courses that are included in my new book. It is because of this that 15 of these courses are identified with the phrase “With Questions” because just as there is some proof he worked on them there are questions about the amount and exactly what he did that need answering through further research. Kingston is not one of these.


Fact: Tilly designed a new 9-hole golf course for Kingston Golf Club. How do we know this? Because he wrote that he did in that brochure. The follow-up to this is when did he do this? As previously shown, since Kingston/Twaaflskill have only had two new courses built in their history, in 1898 and 1902, and we can eliminate 1898, the only other one that Tilly could have designed was the 1902 course. Deduction and neither bias nor “a few coincidences” led to that conclusion.


I am quite certain that some will disagree with my conclusion, and based on some facts that they are applying. Fact: “nobody knows who designed this course in 1902.” I accept that with the addition of three words, for a certainty. But someone absolutely did. The Van Ettens, both father and son, were considered as strong possibilities. As Tom can tell you, he and I had that discussion in private months ago, with my arguments against it not bias-based, rather on known facts.


Fact: There is no one else other than Tilly whose name has been directly attributed as being the person who designed either of the two new courses that Kingston/Twaaflskill have had built in the long history of their club.Tilly had to have designed it at some time.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 04:08:25 PM by Phil Young »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2022, 10:15:28 PM »
Those aren't facts, they are speculation.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Bret Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2022, 08:58:17 AM »
Phil,


I think it’s safe to say we view facts differently. You have completely missed the point of the typo suggestion, because you are too busy telling people what to think and how they are allowed to challenge you.  I got a wonderful review of what’s in this book you recently published and I have absolutely no interest in buying it. I just hope you provide more facts for your readers in Volume III.  Best of Luck!


Bret

Robert Mercer Deruntz

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2022, 12:43:45 PM »
After the previous frauds, I expected a higher level of documentation to support any claim.  Unfortunately, at best, Phil has presented only plausible speculation. And that is no better than a wishful outcome!

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