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Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2022, 06:14:24 PM »
Bret,


What I an confused by, and I am sincerely asking you to explain is what specific "facts" that I am stating aren't facts? Tilly stated in his 1926 brochure that he designed a new course for the Kingston Golf Course. That's a fact. There is no architect mentioned by name in the 1902 board minutes who designed their new course. That's a fact. There is no known architect/ professional or any other person who has claimed that they designed the new course for Kingston/Twaalfskill in 1902. That's a fact. If you accept Tilly's claim to have designed Kingston as he stated in his 1926, the question is a simple one, when did he do it? Since Kingston went out of existence at the end of May, 1902, whoever designed the course had to have done so before that date. That's a fact. Kingston only had two new courses built, in 1898 and 19o2. Those are facts. That means that if one accepts Tilly at his word in the 1926 advertising brochure, he could only have designed it in either 1898 or 1902. How is that not a fact based on those other facts? I don't believe that he designed it in 1898 for the reasons I listed above. That is why I accept that he must have designed the new course in 1902. I honestly don't see this as a difficult line of reasoning based on the list of facts given.


I can accept that you and others disagree with my conclusion, but what is really based on. What facts are there that contradict any of the facts I stated above? Do you disagree with what Tilly wrote that he designed Kingston? If you do, what do you disagree with his claim and why? Or if you agree with it, knowing that the board minutes for both Kingston and Twaaflskill clearly state that Kingston went out of existence in May, 1902, than how can you not believe that Tilly could only have designed it in either 1898 or 1902?


I also would appreciate what you meant by his claim that he designed Kingston in his 1926 advertising brochure could have been a typo? To me, either you meant he misspelled the name, which he didn't, or that he was referring to another golf course and the wrong course was put there. As you weren't specific in what you meant by "typo" I was left with applying a definition for it that I believed you might have meant. Could you please be more specific as I would really like to know what you meant.


I honestly am not worried about selling my books, as they are doing fine. That is not why I came back on the site. I fully expect that there will be challenges to some of the conclusions I've made. There will also be some information contained in them that will greatly surprise some. both about the courses I attribute to him and why and things in his personal life that I've shared. Because of that, I felt that I should be the one to post answers and/or explanations, whether they are accepted or not.


Robert, I'm sorry you feel as you do. I respect your feelings on this. 




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Bret Lawrence

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2022, 10:35:00 PM »
Phil,


I completely understand your logic, you have already explained it to me three times.  I understand you are using some facts to come to your conclusion.  What I don’t agree with is that your conclusion is therefore a fact.


To test any fact requires verifiability.  If you can verify this fact using any other source than the two you have presented I would be happy to agree with this conclusion as a fact.  Like I said earlier, it may very well be Tillinghast’s first design, but there are many factors that could make this appear to be what it’s not. 


The reason I brought up the typo is for verifiabilty.  If this was a typo, then one of your sources is no longer viable.  I am not saying that is necessarily the case, but whenever you conduct research and you come up with “facts” you want to make sure they are bullet proof.  If the secretary you alluded to earlier was writing out Tillinghast’s list and instead of writing Kingston, Ont. Canada she grabbed the N.Y. that was on the line above, then we may have just spent a lot of time on nothing. 


Again I am not saying this is what happened, but I am giving an example of some of the things that can happen when you hold on to one or two pieces of evidence and try come up with an answer to a story that clearly does not have enough information to make a factual conclusion.  Keep digging and the truth will come out.


For me to think it’s a fact, I would like to see information relating to a visit by Tillinghast.  I would like to know how long his course was, what was the par or bogey and I would love to see if he worked with Lawrence Van Etten. Obviously I don’t need to see all of this to think it’s a fact, but at least one mention of Tillinghast in Kingston around 1902 would really help the cause.  In this case, I really do hope it’s Tillinghast and I am happy to hear the book is doing so well.


Bret

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2022, 10:48:55 AM »
Phil:


Help us down the garden path here.


It would be helpful to see the 1926 Brochure, as it might add some context as to how Tillie described his work.  Are there courses listed that he did a design for that were never built?  Are there other courses for which he used an out of date name?  Why didn't he list it as Twaalfskil?  Certainly he would have known that was the name of the club going forward.  (I'm not looking for your answers here, rather I'd like to be able to see the brochure to make this analysis for myself.)


Does the name Colonial GC enter the record anywhere?  This was the first name adopted when the club moved to its new site in 1902.


How intact are the club records that are cited?  Wasn't there a clubhouse fire at Twaalfskil in the '20's?


When did the idea for Kingston's new 1930's course, Wiltwyck, actually start?  It, too, was known as Kingston GC for a brief period of time.  There were many courses built years after being designed.


Are there any connections between Tillie, Kingston, the membership, etc.?


For a guy who was a prolific writer, it seems odd that he never made mention of his work here.


As you have always said, fresh eyes only help.  Perhaps we can start with a fresh look at the one source that mentions Kingston.


Sven


PS - To answer one of Bret's questions from earlier in the thread, the course was noted as being around 3,000 yards in the early guides where it appears and in the press.  Around 1922 that number changed to 3,100 yards. 
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2022, 11:15:07 AM »
Phil Young's new book, The Tillinghast Chronicles, Volume II, claims that A.W. Tillinghast's first known original design was the Kingston Golf Club. The name of this New York club was changed to The Twaalfskill Club in 1902, the year in which the golf course opened. This, of course, is in contrast with the commonly held belief that the 1909-1911 Shawnee Country Club course in Pennsylvania was Tilly's first design. The Young book devotes a chapter to the rationale for the Kingston Golf Club claim. A significant part of the rationale is that Tillinghast himself listed the Kingston Golf Club as one of his original nine-hole designs in a 1926 advertising brochure. The chapter also contains supporting information gleaned from contemporaneous club meeting records and newspaper reporting.


Tom:


As the originator of this thread, and someone who has looked into the issue extensively, do you think the assertion that Tillie designed Kingston is a definite fact, or more like a distinct possibility at this point?


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2022, 04:27:13 PM »
Sven, thanks for the questions. I’ll provide as many answers as I can. In reference to the 1926 Brochure you asked:

“Are there courses listed that he did a design for that were never built?” Yes, there is one that can be identified as such, Hudson River Country Club which can be found in the section “Examinations and Reports.” Among the clubs listed there are some that he only examined and reported on, provided recommendations for that were actually built, designed the above mentioned course for that wasn’t built, courses that he may have just overseen the construction of and a number that there is almost no specific information on. Among these may have been courses designed that also weren’t built. Regarding all of the courses in the “Thirty-six Holes Courses, Twenty-seven Holes Courses, Eighteen Holes Courses, Nine Holes Courses, Reconstructed and Extended Courses sections,” Tilly states, “These courses were planned by A. W. Tillinghast, and the most notable were constructed under the supervision of his organization.”

“It would be helpful to see the 1926 Brochure, as it might add some context as to how Tilly described his work.” I emailed copies of both sides of the Brochure and hope that you can post them as I haven’t learned how to do so on the new site as yet.

“Are there other courses that he used an out-of-date name?” Yes and no. The reason for that odd answer is because of my identifying Myosotis Country Club which he lists and up until my find there was almost no information to be found. It turns out that Tilly designed an 18-hole course for it that was built and played on, owned by Max Phillips. In 1923, on his NJ estate he created the Myosotis Polo Club and had the course designed and built by Tilly to attract more Polo players. In 1925 he transferred title of it to a group of members who wanted nothing to do with polo. They, in turn, hired Tilly do design a new course on the same site as the existing Myosotis and named it Suneagles. The entire story is incredibly fascinating but too long to go into here. Other than that, which isn’t a true out-of-date name, all others are correct as written.

“Why didn’t he list it as Twaalfskill?” You’d have to ask him as he is the only person who would know. I believe that he either didn’t know it had been taken over by Twaalfskill or had simply forgotten it. I would agree with your statement, “Certainly he would have known that was the name going forward” if you had instead stated, he “possibly could” have known. That is just your opinion.

“Does the name Colonial GC enter the record anywhere? This was the first name adopted when the club moved to its new site in 1902.” Yes it does. My chapter on Kingston includes the following:

“Minutes of the 3rd Annual meeting of the Kingston Golf Club held at the office of Everett Fowler April 9th, 1902…After some discussion, motion was duly made and seconded that the name of the club be changed from Kingston Golf Club to the Colonial Club of Kingston. Carried.” This was followed by, “Six weeks later, the board minutes record: “Special meeting of the Kingston Golf Club [evidently the new name didn’t last] held at the office of E. Fowler, Wednesday evening May 21st, 1902 all members having been duly notified.”
 
“How intact are the club records that are cited? Wasn’t there a clubhouse fire in the ‘20’s?” The 1902 Board minutes from which I quote and used in my chapter are intact and were sent to me directly from the club. They are fragile, sometimes difficult to read but usable. I’ll email you a copy of them. These and other board minutes prior to the fire were kept in a Board of Directors home and survived the fire.

“Are there any connections between Tilly, Kingston, the membership, etc?” None of which I know. During the years between the late 1890s and 1915, Tilly played in many tournaments including upstate New York and as far as Lake Placid. He even won the title “Champion of the Adirondacks.” It may be that he met Lawrence Van Etten in one of these tournaments or others from Kingston. But that is only a suggestion. Actually, for the majority of the courses that tilly worked on throughout his career, the specific person, member or otherwise, that contacted him about their specific process isn’t known.

“When did the idea for Kingston’s new 1930’s course, Wiltwyck, actually start?” Tom Buggy’s research on this found that “There's a 1933 newspaper article that describes committee assignments and the impending start of construction for the new 9-hole Kingston/Wiltwyck course. By the way, there's a 1937 newspaper article about consideration of a Wiltwyck-Twaalfskill merger (which never happened). In 1954 Wiltwyck moved to a new location with 18 holes after its original property was lost due to construction of the New York Thruway.” Currently there isn’t even a single mention anywhere that has Tilly involved with the new Kingston Golf Club.

“For a guy who was a prolific writer, it seems odd that he never made mention of his work here.” Actually, it’s the opposite. In the June, 1901 issue of Golf magazine, his article “St. Andrews” was published. His next known published article of any type was in the first issue of The American Golfer magazine, published August, 1908.He also didn’t begin writing for the Philadelphia newspapers until 1911. As all of these publications wanted only current information, his writing about his work at Kingston back in 1902 would not have been wanted by any of them.

Yes, “fresh eyes only help,” and is one of the main reasons I wrote the Tillinghast Chronicles. Almost everything written in them is the result of questions I have been asked about Tilly and his work. There is a great deal of desire by many to know any and everything possible about Tilly. I am extremely open to any information, ideas or suppositions that one sends me, even those that disagree with my conclusions/answers so that corrections can made where warranted. That is, in addition to their lengths prohibiting publishing in paper form, why Volumes II & IV are published as PDFs as they allow me to provide annual updates to the information in them.

I apologize for the length and hope this helps, Phil
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 04:28:52 PM by Phil Young »

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #30 on: February 06, 2022, 04:57:42 PM »
Sven, let me first explain how I got involved in this and the reason for starting this thread. I was asked by a friend and former Twaalfskill member to research the postcard that was the basis for the Twaalfskill Club website content about a Marsfield Club and an 1873 founding date. (The research revealed that 1873 was a Print Run Number rather than a date, and that a connection between Marsfield (whatever it was) and Twaalfskill does not exist). While doing the research I stumbled into the 1902 course question and could not resist. My interest in all of this has been on behalf of the club, which would dearly love to know, either way, whether or not Tillinghast designed its golf course. I started this thread (and a previous one) to get an airing, and perhaps new information, related to a difference of opinion on the question between Phil Young and the Tillinghast Association. Without a resolution of the question, the club is understandably unable to proceed.

I won't bore you and others with the dead ends that have occurred in finding primary sources, but if you or Adam Lawrence (not Bret) are interested, I can tell you a few that you probably never encountered - like the fact that copies of the 1902 Kingston Daily Freeman newspaper, which contain three May articles about Twaalfskill's founding, do not exist anywhere in any digital, microfilm or paper form. Bottom line, I have not found any contemporaneous material that resolves the question.

To answer your question directly, I think that Tillinghast as the designer of the 1902 course is the most likely answer to the question. I base this primarily on the compelling evidence of the 1926 brochure.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2022, 05:00:54 PM by Tom Buggy »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2022, 11:47:28 AM »

Attached below is the Tillie Brochure discussed above, which includes the Kingston GC listing, forwarded to me by Phil.  Phil also forwarded a number of images of the 1902 board meetings dealing with the transition from Kingston to Twaalfskill.  I am not going to include those as there is nothing in those minutes that really adds to the conversation.   A summary of those minutes can be found in the two 1964 articles copied below for anyone that is interested.


Unlike others on this thread, I don't think this one reference rises to the level of dispositive proof that Tillie must have designed the course in 1902. 


1902 to 1926 was a long period of time, and lacking any kind of contemporaneous corroborative source I have a hard time making that leap.


Is it possible, yes.  Is it definite, no.


There is a bit of history lurking in the background on this topic that has been left undiscussed.  Those that are curious can probably find it all in a quick google search.  I'm not going to fully air it here, but it should probably at least be referred to in the interest of full transparency on this issue.  In light of more recent developments on other topics on this site, I'd only suggest that those looking to reestablish a foothold as a credible source hereabouts make sure they tread carefully.







Feb. 11, 1964 The Kingston Daily Freeman -





Feb. 12, 1964 The Kingston Daily Freeman -


"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2022, 12:13:38 PM »
Are the 18 hole courses listed chronologically?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Worth

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2022, 12:16:48 PM »
Is the bit of history that Sven references the easily googleable Kingston Daily Freeman articles from 12 yrs ago where someone approached the USGA about Twalfskill‘s lineage? 


Apparently this debate has been going on for quite some time and seems to resurface from time to time.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2022, 12:19:11 PM by Mike Worth »

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2022, 12:17:11 PM »
Are the 18 hole courses listed chronologically?


Didn't check the 18's, but pretty sure the 9's aren't.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2022, 05:06:51 PM »
As the originator of this thread I'd like to summarize where I think things stand and offer some additional information about the Twaalfskill golf course for those with an interest. Information first. Of the original 34-acre property the golf course consumes 26 acres -- very small indeed. The locations of each of the nine holes remain today as they were in 1902. There has been one routing change: The course used to start on what is now #5 (the 4th green is near the clubhouse); the change was made when a new pro shop was built near the current first tee. Over the years there have been changes to two greens: a right-side size reduction on #1 and a back-to-front slope reduction on #3. There have been a few (very few) bunker additions and removals, and two or three bunker "severity reductions." A separate back tee was added on #2, and a few backward tee extensions were made on some other holes. During my research at the club I made and documented a modest photo tour of the course. If anyone would like a copy please email me at tbuggy@aol.com.

With respect to the research done to find contemporaneous information to support or disprove a Tillinghast design, I mentioned in a previous post the absence of 1902 editions of the Kingston Daily Freeeman newspaper. Another limiting factor is the nature of club meeting records. They are brief and lacking in detail. Apparently, the chairpersons of major committees such as Grounds/Green and Finance prepared reports that were presented and discussed at annual meetings. If written reports were prepared and filed, they no longer exist (possibly, they were lost in a 1920s clubhouse fire). A newspaper report about the 1903 meeting mentioned that the Grounds report contained details about the building of the 1902 golf course -- a lost primary source.

Bret Lawrence raised a question about Lawrence Van Etten, a contemporary golf course architect of some note (Knollwood and Deal in the late 1890s and Wykagyl later) who was born and is buried in Kingston, was a brother of 1902 Grounds Chairman Judge Van Etten, and was a member of the Twaalfskill Club who represented the club in early 1900s HRGA competitions. It seems quite possible that he would have had some role with the 1902 golf course, if only its construction. My research with Kingston, New Rochelle and Westchester County historical sources, as well as with Internet and newspaper archives, did not produce any connection between Lawrence Van Etten and the 1902 golf course.


As to where the Tillinghast design question stands, it is clear that some contributors to this thread believe that some form of contemporaneous supporting information is required in addition to the material provided by Phil Young that includes the compelling evidence of the 1926 Tillighast brochure listing of Kingston Golf Club as a Tillinghast design. I can confirm that the Tillinghast Association has the same view and position, and has removed Kingston Golf Club from their listing of Tillinghast courses. My personal view is that a Tillinghast design is the most likely scenario (or a "distinct possibility" as expressed by Sven Nilsen). So, there is an impasse. Unfortunately, this leaves the Twaalfskill Club without a basis to proceed.

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2022, 05:18:11 PM »
Tom:


To be clear, I didn't express that it was a "distinct possibility."  I asked you if you thought it was.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Tom Buggy

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2022, 05:48:10 PM »
Sven, agreed about your clarification. "An expression you used" would be a better form. Even better would be omitting the reference.

Nigel Islam

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2022, 10:10:45 AM »
The listing from Sven also lists Aronimink as being planned by Tillinghast in the same context as the nine hole Kingston.


These advertisements can be very helpful in starting a search for a golf course pedigree, but you have to be careful in assuming them to be gospel. Golf course designers in the 1920s marketed themselves well. They also considered designs as plans that were submitted, and not necessarily built.




MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2022, 10:30:21 AM »
The listing from Sven also lists Aronimink as being planned by Tillinghast in the same context as the nine hole Kingston.


These advertisements can be very helpful in starting a search for a golf course pedigree, but you have to be careful in assuming them to be gospel. Golf course designers in the 1920s marketed themselves well. They also considered designs as plans that were submitted, and not necessarily built.


Nigel,


That was an earlier version of Aronimink, circa 1913-15  before they moved to Newtown Square.


Interestingly, that course was planned by members Tillinghast, George Klauder, & Cecil Calvert with some suggestions by Harry Vardon and Ted Ray.  I wish I had seen that one.
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Sven Nilsen

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2022, 10:47:49 AM »
The listing from Sven also lists Aronimink as being planned by Tillinghast in the same context as the nine hole Kingston.


These advertisements can be very helpful in starting a search for a golf course pedigree, but you have to be careful in assuming them to be gospel. Golf course designers in the 1920s marketed themselves well. They also considered designs as plans that were submitted, and not necessarily built.


Nigel,


That was an earlier version of Aronimink, circa 1913-15  before they moved to Newtown Square.


Interestingly, that course was planned by members Tillinghast, George Klauder, & Cecil Calvert with some suggestions by Harry Vardon and Ted Ray.  I wish I had seen that one.


Obviously the club didn't think too highly of the project at the time.  They brought in Ross only a few years later to start making changes.


Sven
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2022, 12:53:23 PM »


Obviously the club didn't think too highly of the project at the time.  They brought in Ross only a few years later to start making changes.


Sven

Sven,

Some might say the club hasn't changed much in that regard over the past 100+ years.   
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Nigel Islam

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2022, 02:30:22 PM »
Thanks Mike and Sven. I was unaware of that connection. I feel that this illustrates my point on using advertisements just by themselves. The entire story is not always evident.

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2023, 04:19:36 PM »
Yesterday I was fortunate to play Twaalfskill on a brief tour of 3 upstate New York nine-hole courses.   The club and pro Chris were exceptionally welcoming and couldn't have been nicer.   I'll share some thoughts over the weekend on the questions related to this thread but thought it might be helpful for folks here to see some pictures of the course.   I wish I had taken more but I was too busy relishing the character of the course, as well as the companionship of my host.


Hole 1 approach over a stream and bunkers fronting the green with the uphill par 3 2nd in background.





The long, uphill par three 3rd




The short par four 4th has a blind bunkering scheme not too unlike the 12th at St. Andrews.




The uber-long, uphill approach across a rock outcropping par 5 5th is an odyssey.  You can see the flag in the upper right corner.




The 5th from behind the green looking back.




The lengthy downhill par three 6th crosses a stone wall before settling to a fall away green in the valley.




The Alps-like par five7th finishes in a corner of the property along a cemetery as seen from behind the green.




Another view of the 7th where right is literally death.




The short par four 8th is drivable by bombers but the perched, shallow green and narrow fairway do not suffer fools gladly.




The drive from the long, uphill dogleg right finishing 9th hole requires a carry to the proper tier for visibility on the approach.

"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Mike Hendren

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #44 on: July 01, 2023, 03:19:12 PM »
No Fenway on the list of AWT courses?
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #45 on: July 01, 2023, 06:08:56 PM »
Mike, Fenway was listed. It's original name was "Fenimore Country Club." You'll see it listed under "Twenty-seven Holes Courses." The original design drawing includes the nine-hole "Ladies" course of 1934 yards in addition to the eighteen hole course. Also, despite what many believe, the 1926 tri-fold advertising brochure does not name every golf course/club at which Tilly worked.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2023, 10:17:56 AM by Phil Young »

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2023, 08:03:29 AM »
Mike, Fenway was listed. It's original name was "Fenimore Country Club." You'll see it listed under "Twenty-seven Holes Courses." The original design drawing includes the nine-hole "Ladies" course of 1934 yards in addition to the eighteen hole course. Also, despite what many believe, the 1926 tri-fold advertising brochure does not name every golf course/club at which Tilly worked.


I'm a little surprised that Fenway, i.e. "Fenimore" is listed as an original design.   It's been awhile since I looked at the history but my understanding is that the course opened as a Dev Emmet design in 1922, only to be revised by Tillinghast a mere 2 years later.   How much of the original course was kept in place seems unclear, but it's tough to believe that it was a wholesale blow it up and start over.   What am I missing?
"Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent" - Calvin Coolidge

https://cobbscreek.org/

Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2023, 02:57:08 PM »
What you are missing are two words: Winged Foot.

Two days before Fenimore’s courses opened for play, the Evening Telegram announced: “FENIMORE COUNTRY CLUB TO BE FORMALLY OPENED ON NEXT MEMORIAL DAY. Members Say That It Will Be One of the Most Attractive Links in the World–Golf Links Ideal.”
The article that followed stated, “When the Fenimore Country Club is formally opened on Memorial Day, Tuesday, May 30, [1922] it will be found to be one of the most attractive country clubs in the world. Its membership includes well-known jurists and prominent theatrical and business men of New York and vicinity…Devereaux Emmet was the architect for the links. Real turf will be found in the fairways, and the greens and tees are all grass and very solidly built. Experts who have looked over the links believe they are ideal for championship tournaments.”

When Winged Foot opened for play it was immediately being heralded as having two true championship courses. Proof of this was it being awarded the 1926 Metropolitan Amateur Championship and the 1929 U. S. Open.

When the Tillinghast designed course opened for play, how did the members of Fenimore respond to the changes? The December 13th, 1924 edition of The American Golfer reported as to just how pleased the membership was at what Tilly created for them. It stated, “Two years ago A. W. Tillinghast was called in by the Fenimore Country Club of White Plains and asked to remodel its course and design eighteen new greens. The work was done without interrupting the play of the members and was brought to a completion this season. Mr. Tillinghast profited by the cooperation of Jim Donaldson, the club pro, and Lyman Carrier, of the Green Section of the U. S. G. A., but the Fenimore members were so appreciative of what the course architect himself had done that they held a dinner recently at which Mr. Tillinghast was the guest of honor and at which they presented him with a large diamond ring.”

It wasn’t long before their course was being viewed as the “true championship course” that the members had desired from the beginning. The September 9th, 1928 edition of the National Greenkeeper magazine, contained an article that bore the title, “Fenimore: A Championship Course.” It was written by Albert J. Wilder, Fenimore Country Club’s Greenkeeper.

The article stated, “The Fenimore course was reconstructed by A. W. Tillinghast in 1924 and since then has rapidly gained recognition as a championship course and now ranks among the six finest tests of shot-making in the metropolitan district. Some of the recent tournaments held here have been the Metropolitan Junior Amateur, Westchester County Open and Metropolitan Amateur Championship [1928].


Over the next decade, as the Great Depression caused financial and personal havoc everywhere, Fenimore Country Club found that it was not immune to suffering financial setbacks. In 1936 the club was forced to reorganize and took on the new name of Fenway Golf Club.”
« Last Edit: July 03, 2023, 03:03:00 PM by Phil Young »

MCirba

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2023, 03:07:07 PM »
Phil,


While understanding that competitive spirit wrought by the creation of neighboring Winged Foot, I'm still not sure why Tilly listed Fenimore as a 27 hole new course, as opposed to a reconstruction of an existing course?    I don't want to get too off-track here, but it goes to my suspicion (guess, really) about Twaalfskill that I'll expand on later.   Thanks!
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Phil Young

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Re: New News: Tillinghast and Kingston Golf Club in 1902
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2023, 06:42:20 PM »
Mike, the simple answer is that Tilly believed he had designed a brand new course.

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