Are there truly three shot holes with a decision to make on the first shot?

[Sven Nilsen]

Pacific Dunes #3.


In the summer, this is a three shot hole for just about everyone.


Fairway is split by two center line bunkers that start around 220 off the tee.  The right side is wider, but protected by gorse and the shot is almost dead into the wind.  The left side is a bit more narrow but you can usually eke out a bit more distance as its more of a quartering angle on the breeze.


The best spot for the second shot to end up is short and left of the green, which gives the best angle in for an approach.  The pitch shot from short of the greenside bunkers on the right is one of the toughest up and downs on property, as the green runs to the back and the shot needs to stop fairly quickly.


To get to that spot the right side drive presents the best angle.


For the short knockers, there is a little bunker guarding the right side of the fairway maybe 180 off the tee.  That bunker gets more than its fair share of play.  For these types, the play may be to lay up short of the middle bunker and then tack your way up the hole from there, leaving a choice to try to get left on the next one or play out wide right leaving a very difficult approach.

[JESII]

#7 at Pine Valley forces a decision in that you need to be in the fairway but you also want to hit it pretty far so you can get over Hells Half Acre with your second. 475 yards away from the back of the back tee.  Seeing as my driver is my straightest club, it's not as much of a decision...

[Andrew Harvie]

Pacific Dunes #3.


In the summer, this is a three shot hole for just about everyone.


Fairway is split by two center line bunkers that start around 220 off the tee.  The right side is wider, but protected by gorse and the shot is almost dead into the wind.  The left side is a bit more narrow but you can usually eke out a bit more distance as its more of a quartering angle on the breeze.


The best spot for the second shot to end up is short and left of the green, which gives the best angle in for an approach.  The pitch shot from short of the greenside bunkers on the right is one of the toughest up and downs on property, as the green runs to the back and the shot needs to stop fairly quickly.


To get to that spot the right side drive presents the best angle.


For the short knockers, there is a little bunker guarding the right side of the fairway maybe 180 off the tee.  That bunker gets more than its fair share of play.  For these types, the play may be to lay up short of the middle bunker and then tack your way up the hole from there, leaving a choice to try to get left on the next one or play out wide right leaving a very difficult approach.

It is 499 yards and I've hit it in two both times I've played with a summer wind, but there certainly is a decision to be made off the tee

[Carl Nichols]

Garland:

Can you be more specific?  On many par 5's, I start with the same basic choice I make on many par 4's--whether to hit driver or something shorter but more accurate.   That choice depends on a lot of factors; on a par 5, one factor is whether I could even reach in 2 if I hit driver.  If not, then depending on other factors I might opt for a shorter club.   

What I would best like to see is decisions based on having a better second shot to set up the third. Your suggestion of "If not, then depending on other factors I might opt for a shorter club." makes me want to know those factors that would make you choose to use a different club than driver.

Perhaps I'm somewhat of an outlier because I'm more accurate with my three wood (and hybrid) than my driver.  Or perhaps I'm missing something.  But on a true 3-shot hole, I'm usually thinking about whether the benefit of hitting driver--a potentially shorter/easier layup--is worth the risk of missing the fairway or worse.  It's a similar calculation I make on many par 4s, i.e., is the benefit of getting a shorter second shot worth the risk of a wider dispersion?


Take, for example, #9 at Congressional (before the renovation at least--I've only played it once since they reopened).  It was close to unreachable from the longer tees.  You really didn't want to miss the fairway on your drive because of some bunkers in the landing zone, the rough, and some contours that could make for difficult stances off the fairway.  In addition, hitting the fairway with your layup was very important because the fairway was benched into a slope; if you missed fairway, you likely had a lie with the ball severely above or below your feet.  And oh, there was a severe little valley from about 100 yards to 30 yards from the green that was maintained as rough.  So working back from where I wanted to be after my second shot--about 110-130 yards from the green in the fairway--I had this decision on the tee:  hit 3-wood, thereby increasing my chances of being in the fairway but with a longer second shot; or hit driver, shortening my second shot but increasing the chance it was being played from a tougher spot than the fairway.

That may be an extreme example, but I think the point is often true, for me at least:  once I know where I'd like to be for my third shot, I'm presented with the basic question of whether driver is the best play for me to get there.  [size=78%]         [/size]

[Paul Rudovsky]

Think you will see one in June at the US Open.  Primrose #8 is Championship #14.  It is about 620 yards, bending left and about 465 yards from the tee is a sharp uphill climb (guessing about a 30' vertical rise) and this hill is covered by deep bunkers and fescue.  The fairway restarts 520 yards from tee (100 yards short of green center).  Green is very very small and two tiered. 


On tee shot player is faced with fairway that as it bends left has a very slight rise that peaks around 310-315 off tee , and then gradually goes downhill for next 40 yards.  Fairway is relatively narrow and the rough on both sides of this fairway has always been the thickest rough for championships at Brookline.  So off the tee, the decision for the tour player (unless they are fairly short off the tee) is do they hit driver and try to catch the downslope at 315...if they do and stay in fairway, most can reach the green (but it will be a very small target).  If they miss the fairway off the tee...no one will be able to hit their second to the restart of the fairway on top of the bunker/fescue hill...and if they try and fail, hitting into the hill means bogey 6 at best and 7 or 8 easy to result.  Laying up means a third shot of about 165 -170 that is absolutely totally blind as you look up the hill.


Other choice would be to hit 3 wood off tee and then long iron/hybrid to top of hill and then short wedge into green.


IMO the slight rise that peaks at 310-315 makes the tee shot a real strategic choice

So risking penal rough and restricted hack outs to gain a downhill boost to the tee shot is the decision.


Yep...sounds like a decision to me.  There has to be a risk associated with taking the driver...and also a risk associated with taking a 3 wood off the tee and that happens because the lay up area on top of the hill is very small and blind from below.  So the safe alternative is not without its risks.

[Garland Bayley]

7 at The Bridge now has a small pot left center bunker that can be skirted by a tee shot left of it, flirting with the left gunch and left to right sloped fairway, or flown by a powerful player, either of which catches the speed slot of a left fairway resulting in 40-70 more yards.
The "pot bunker is actually a piece of the old left bunker which was mostlt replaced with fairway, which now makes it possible for the cunning golfer to access the slot without the ability to fly it, assuming he either draws the shot to hold the left to right slope or has enough umph to hold the line before breaking right down the hill to a long or even a shot iron approach.


A difficult shot in the prevailing summer wind off the left shoulder.
So the better player has the choice of hitting a club that won't reach the pot bunker or playing to the center or right side of the fairway(where the fairway ends)with a driver or less for beter players.


A definite choice off the tee,which makes the second far more difficult, though shorter maintained rough has reduced the penalty or need for a choice for longer hitters recently.
...

I wondered how long before we would get a bunker in the fairway to be the catalyst for the decision. Bunker with a speed slot to boot.

[Garland Bayley]

Pacific Dunes #3.


In the summer, this is a three shot hole for just about everyone.


Fairway is split by two center line bunkers that start around 220 off the tee.  The right side is wider, but protected by gorse and the shot is almost dead into the wind.  The left side is a bit more narrow but you can usually eke out a bit more distance as its more of a quartering angle on the breeze.


The best spot for the second shot to end up is short and left of the green, which gives the best angle in for an approach.  The pitch shot from short of the greenside bunkers on the right is one of the toughest up and downs on property, as the green runs to the back and the shot needs to stop fairly quickly.


To get to that spot the right side drive presents the best angle.


For the short knockers, there is a little bunker guarding the right side of the fairway maybe 180 off the tee.  That bunker gets more than its fair share of play.  For these types, the play may be to lay up short of the middle bunker and then tack your way up the hole from there, leaving a choice to try to get left on the next one or play out wide right leaving a very difficult approach.

It seems to me that playing the tee shot right gives more quartering wind on the second shot than you would get by driving it left on the first shot. Obviously there is a decision to make on the tee shot, but it seems to have an obvious choice to me.

Have you ever counseled a player to go left from this tee in the summer?

[Jay Mickle]

All 4 par 5s at Tobacco Road especially if you are a long driver. Every first shot sets up the second and requires thought as the risk/reward values are high.

[Sven Nilsen]

Have you ever counseled a player to go left from this tee in the summer?

Rarely, but it happens, most often for a player with a draw bias off the tee.  More often than not a miss left ends up just fine, including anything that gets all the way over to 12.


Sometimes, depending on the player, I want them to pick the side based on what fits their eye.


Sven

[Sven Nilsen]

It is 499 yards and I've hit it in two both times I've played with a summer wind, but there certainly is a decision to be made off the tee

Those are two pretty good shots if it was really blowing.  Even Kyle Berkshire played it as a three shotter in his run through Pac.  Pretty sure he hit 2 iron, 4 iron, wedge, but he also hits his 2 iron 315 yards with no wind.


Sven

[Garland Bayley]

I modified an existing double dogleg par five a little to demonstrate my idea on a decision for the first shot. I've marked it with shot lengths based on USGA handicapping which figures 250 yards for a drive and 220 yards for a second shot for the scratch golfer. The design pattern could be called double squeeze play.

I added a bunker in the fairway to force a decision to go left or right of it. Right of it allows hugging the inside of the dogleg on the drive, and sets up to hug the inside of the dogleg when the hole turns back the other way. The safe route would be to play to the wide side of the fairway with both shots.

SqueezePlayBunkers by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

The picture below shows the view of the second shot. Notice that there is a bunker on the right and the fairway flattens out between it and the slope above the left side of the fairway.

SqueezePlaySecond by Garland Bayley, on Flickr

I moved the bunker in this picture a little left to allow play to be squeezed between the bunker and the slope off the left side of the fairway. The location between the bunker and the left edge gives the best approach to the green as it is from the most level lie and can be reached with the ball bouncing straight and with the shorter shots shown in the first image by the black lines. Also playing wide left on the first would have a ball landing on the downslope from the left edge, thereby possibly propelling the ball into the bunker thereby making playing wide right safer.

[Garland Bayley]

All 4 par 5s at Tobacco Road especially if you are a long driver. Every first shot sets up the second and requires thought as the risk/reward values are high.

I don't see it Jay. First hole just looks like it is a blind drive but just hit it as center as you can. Fourth hole looks like it could be a great cape created by a huge sand area. But, when you measure it, the turn is too far from the tee to be playing it as a cape.  If you want to convince me, you have to be more explicit.

[Garland Bayley]

All 4 par 5s at Tobacco Road especially if you are a long driver. Every first shot sets up the second and requires thought as the risk/reward values are high.

Had time to look a little further. Eleven looks like there is the risk/reward decision. With 90 yards in width to play to, the safe route would be to go around the outside of the dogleg make it truly a three shot hole. Whereas, flirting with the sand along the right side rewards with being able to reach in two.

Thirteen looks to be a cape driving hole. How much will you bite off clearing the bunker?

[Garland Bayley]

#7 at Pine Valley forces a decision in that you need to be in the fairway but you also want to hit it pretty far so you can get over Hells Half Acre with your second. 475 yards away from the back of the back tee.  Seeing as my driver is my straightest club, it's not as much of a decision...

Seems to me that with hells half acre there, there is not much of a decision on the drive. Stripe it out there as best you can as the shorter you hit the drive, the bigger problem you have, and you can't reach hells half acre from the tee.