Are there truly three shot holes with a decision to make on the first shot?

[Garland Bayley]

   I suppose any cape like hole where how much one bites off determines how close to the green one gets. Is it #6 at Bay Hill where this question is presented?

OK, we now have a couple of cape hole examples created by water. How about any cape hole examples without water?

[Garland Bayley]

Garland,


  Two par fives with staggered bunkers on the right are numbers 3 at Philly CC ...

This hole then has a cape hole drive formed by bunkers?

[Garland Bayley]

... At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7 ...

What's the decision on #7? The good player is playing a tee forward enough that the stream comes into play? It's not a par 5 (three shot hole) for him then.

[Garland Bayley]

...At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7, but not on 9 or 17.
...

Why wouldn't you have to make a decision on 17? Would not the bunker make a choice of attempt to fly it, squeeze it up the right side as far as possible, or just play to the center well short which means your second will be squeezed by the next fairway bunker?

[Garland Bayley]

...
I feel that a decision needs to be made on every par five at my home course, Rolling Green. I can’t execute most of them but I try to realize how the next shot affects the tee shot.

I don't see a decision on 9 or 18. Seems just playing to the center of the fairway would work as well anything. Perhaps there is something in the contouring that I can't see from the satellite view?

[Garland Bayley]

If I had a true 3 shotter for most players (ignoring those 330 yard plus hitters on tour) I would have considered gradually narrowing the fw to create a gradation of how much risk to take for added length and shorter third shot.

...

Do you have any examples of this? No fair using #17 at Rolling Green?

[mike_malone]

...
I feel that a decision needs to be made on every par five at my home course, Rolling Green. I can’t execute most of them but I try to realize how the next shot affects the tee shot.

I don't see a decision on 9 or 18. Seems just playing to the center of the fairway would work as well anything. Perhaps there is something in the contouring that I can't see from the satellite view?

Garland,


That explains your answer. You haven’t seen our land! 


9 has a dramatic left to right tilt in the fairway. It has a bump just beyond the bunker that makes balls roll backwards and right. I think hugging the bunker on the right is the usually the best shot for my level. If you hit the left side of the fairway you must be very long.


18 is a reverse camber so it tilts left but doglegs right. You can hug the right bunkers but I think the play is down the left side of the fairway because that gives the best bounce.


We inexplicably moved the championship tee forward so they hit over the bunkers but if they go left trees can be an issue.


Decisions are also affected by changing weather and seasons which create different wind or turf firmness.


I can’t ever remember just trying to hit down the middle on any of these par fives or most of the other Philly Flynns.

[JESII]

...At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7, but not on 9 or 17.
...

Why wouldn't you have to make a decision on 17? Would not the bunker make a choice of attempt to fly it, squeeze it up the right side as far as possible, or just play to the center well short which means your second will be squeezed by the next fairway bunker?

Well, it's about 275 to reach the bunker, which is sort of the outer limit for me since it's a bit uphill. I can't hit it through the fairway if I hit it right up the center so the worst that can happen with a full driver is that I pull it into the bunker and have to lay up to a wedge distance.


I think the bunker is 300ish to carry, uphill a little bit. I don't think more than a couple guys on Tour are doing that. The few that comfortably move the ball right to left and keep it in the air that long are lefty's and BDC.


This is a hole that would highlight the ball striking differences between a good playing amateur (scratch or just better) and a PGA Tour player. The "easy" birdie on this hole is to hit it 265 up the center of the fairway and hit a 250 shot into the middle of the green. That's easy for the guys on TV...at least looks it. Good playing amateurs, not the elite, but good players, can't hit that second shot more than 1 out of 20 and the miss is frequently worse than just being back at 100 yards in the fairway.

[jim_lewis]

For most tour players a decision is made on the 2nd hole at Augusta National based on the hole location and (maybe) the wind. If the pin is far right, most will hit driver in anticipation of going for the middle of the green where the ball will move toward the hole for an easy birdie or potential eagle.
If the hole is located far left, most will lay up short of the fairway bunker and play their second shot short right and try to make birdie with a pitch and putt. In that circumstance, there is little purpose in hitting driver, because a second shot over the left bunker is no more likely to produce a birdie that a pitch from short right.

[mike_malone]

...At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7, but not on 9 or 17.
...

Why wouldn't you have to make a decision on 17? Would not the bunker make a choice of attempt to fly it, squeeze it up the right side as far as possible, or just play to the center well short which means your second will be squeezed by the next fairway bunker?

Well, it's about 275 to reach the bunker, which is sort of the outer limit for me since it's a bit uphill. I can't hit it through the fairway if I hit it right up the center so the worst that can happen with a full driver is that I pull it into the bunker and have to lay up to a wedge distance.


I think the bunker is 300ish to carry, uphill a little bit. I don't think more than a couple guys on Tour are doing that. The few that comfortably move the ball right to left and keep it in the air that long are lefty's and BDC.


This is a hole that would highlight the ball striking differences between a good playing amateur (scratch or just better) and a PGA Tour player. The "easy" birdie on this hole is to hit it 265 up the center of the fairway and hit a 250 shot into the middle of the green. That's easy for the guys on TV...at least looks it. Good playing amateurs, not the elite, but good players, can't hit that second shot more than 1 out of 20 and the miss is frequently worse than just being back at 100 yards in the fairway.

17 needs two things. One is to lower the tees to grade which effectively makes it longer and returning some trees to the right rough as the hole turns. The original created a problem for a straight and long drive because you could get behind a set of trees. So either hook the tee shot or lay back. There was no bunker. Trees were there. It was a gate hole.
The average golfer’s decision is how close to come to the trees on the left to shorten the hole.

[mike_malone]

The two contra examples are 13 at Lancaster and 11 at Lehigh. Both have a restricted tee shot.

[Garland Bayley]

13th hole at Burnham & Berrow is about 570 from the back tees. There is a bridal path that runs across the fairway at around 270ish. For a good player, there is the question of what club to hit to set yourself up for success. Driver might bounce over the bridal path leaving you much closer, but also could go in it (I think it's in play although I haven't been there in some time, so it's not a good spot to finish in). Or you lay up short of it, which makes your second shot that much longer and it's tight where you're playing to.

So here we have challenge an awkward position on the drive by going all out versus laying up short of it and having a difficult second shot to a narrow area, or as the club's fly over says lost ball right or lost ball left.

Clearly this course need some sheep.

[Jim_Coleman]

Mayday, I'm curious about your Flynn comment.


The two/three par fives at Huntingdon Valley don't require a decision from the tee. At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7, but not on 9 or 17.


Manufacturer's #7, nope. #9, nope. #12, nope. #15 nope...#18 to top green, nope.




#16 at Applebrook (by Gil Hanse) certainly forces the better player to consider if they can carry the creek crossing the fairway. The benefit of doing so is an easily reachable (although not necessarily easily hittable) green in two shots. Opting for the conservative tee shot leaves an interesting second shot as there is a nasty bunker right in the middle of a large flat fairway. Pretty cool hole on pretty boring, compromised land.

Jim:  Agree. And #7 at RG only poses a question for a very long hitter who is afraid of hitting it into the creek. I know nobody in that category. Flynn is not the answer to every question here.






Seeing your most recent response now so will reply on a later post...

[Garland Bayley]

Garland:

Can you be more specific?  On many par 5's, I start with the same basic choice I make on many par 4's--whether to hit driver or something shorter but more accurate.   That choice depends on a lot of factors; on a par 5, one factor is whether I could even reach in 2 if I hit driver.  If not, then depending on other factors I might opt for a shorter club.   

What I would best like to see is decisions based on having a better second shot to set up the third. Your suggestion of "If not, then depending on other factors I might opt for a shorter club." makes me want to know those factors that would make you choose to use a different club than driver.

[Garland Bayley]

...
I feel that a decision needs to be made on every par five at my home course, Rolling Green. I can’t execute most of them but I try to realize how the next shot affects the tee shot.

I don't see a decision on 9 or 18. Seems just playing to the center of the fairway would work as well anything. Perhaps there is something in the contouring that I can't see from the satellite view?

Garland,


That explains your answer. You haven’t seen our land! 


9 has a dramatic left to right tilt in the fairway. It has a bump just beyond the bunker that makes balls roll backwards and right. I think hugging the bunker on the right is the usually the best shot for my level. If you hit the left side of the fairway you must be very long.


18 is a reverse camber so it tilts left but doglegs right. You can hug the right bunkers but I think the play is down the left side of the fairway because that gives the best bounce.


We inexplicably moved the championship tee forward so they hit over the bunkers but if they go left trees can be an issue.


Decisions are also affected by changing weather and seasons which create different wind or turf firmness.


I can’t ever remember just trying to hit down the middle on any of these par fives or most of the other Philly Flynns.

So just hitting it up the middle is not ideal, but it still sounds like you choose the same place to hit it every time.

[Matthew Petersen]

The hole that comes to mind is #5 at Trilogy at Vistancia in Peoria, AZ. It is a Gary Panks design. You can see the scorecard here.


#5 is 608 / 586 / 557 from the back three sets of tees so almost never reachable. It's a bit of a double dogleg, turning left around a large bunker off the tee and then back to the right around a deep bunker at the corner in the area of the second shot.


The decision on the drive is how willing you are to challenge the bunker left. It's a lot to carry, but a draw or a well-aimed shot that keeps in the left side of the fairway skirting the bunker provides a better opportunity and angle for the second shot. The risk is that if you are hitting driver but bail right to avoid the sand (or the wash that runs to the left of it), the fairway runs out quicker down the right, so you can easily run through the fairway and into the scrubby/desert area if you take too conservative of a line.

The reward for the bold drive isn't reaching in two, unless you really murder the ball or the hole is really downwind. It's that you can get your second shot past the big bunker that sits on the right side about 130 yards short of the green. If you can get over that with your second shot, even if you are not reaching the green, you have a simply pitch up the length of the green.

However, if you hit a more conservative drive, your options with your second shot are either to play short of that bunker, in which case your third is longer and semi-blind, or to try to play left of the bunker (which again can bring the wash left of the fairwya into play) and which means the third shot has to come in over greenside bunkers.

So, a 3-shot par 5 where there is a decision to make on the drive.

[mike_malone]

Garland,
 You’re probably more right than I about 9. Except for a strong wind from left to right it’s a single decision for most.


I’m thinking that a decision is involved whenever it’s not just hit it down the middle.

[Mark_Fine]

There is no question that on some holes (did we define three shot holes as an individual thing?) there might be less strategy or decision making required on the tee shot.  Sometimes the same can be said for the second shot.  However, as pointed out there are soooo many factors that impact where a decision is needed or not.  I don't think anyone has mentioned that a decision on the tee shot could be impacted simply by how a player if feeling that day or how he or she is hitting particular clubs.  Some days if the driver is off a 3W or hybrid or even a long iron might be a better decision or if the driver is on a different more aggressive line of play might be in order.  There are sooo many "three shot holes" where careful thought and decision making must be taken as to how to attack them.  That said, the better the player, the more thought is often required.  What did Pete Dye say, "When I get those dudes thinking,...".  That said, a player that is simply trying to make solid contact might not have many decisions to make on any hole 

[Garland Bayley]

...
I don't think anyone has mentioned that a decision on the tee shot could be impacted simply by how a player if feeling that day or how he or she is hitting particular clubs.
...

I didn't notice anyone mentioning it. Another I didn't notice anyone mentioning is how much the tee markers may move from day to day.

[Garland Bayley]

The hole that comes to mind is #5 at Trilogy at Vistancia in Peoria, AZ. It is a Gary Panks design. You can see the scorecard here.


#5 is 608 / 586 / 557 from the back three sets of tees so almost never reachable. It's a bit of a double dogleg, turning left around a large bunker off the tee and then back to the right around a deep bunker at the corner in the area of the second shot.


The decision on the drive is how willing you are to challenge the bunker left. It's a lot to carry, but a draw or a well-aimed shot that keeps in the left side of the fairway skirting the bunker provides a better opportunity and angle for the second shot. The risk is that if you are hitting driver but bail right to avoid the sand (or the wash that runs to the left of it), the fairway runs out quicker down the right, so you can easily run through the fairway and into the scrubby/desert area if you take too conservative of a line.

The reward for the bold drive isn't reaching in two, unless you really murder the ball or the hole is really downwind. It's that you can get your second shot past the big bunker that sits on the right side about 130 yards short of the green. If you can get over that with your second shot, even if you are not reaching the green, you have a simply pitch up the length of the green.

However, if you hit a more conservative drive, your options with your second shot are either to play short of that bunker, in which case your third is longer and semi-blind, or to try to play left of the bunker (which again can bring the wash left of the fairwya into play) and which means the third shot has to come in over greenside bunkers.

So, a 3-shot par 5 where there is a decision to make on the drive.

[Paul Rudovsky]

Think you will see one in June at the US Open.  Primrose #8 is Championship #14.  It is about 620 yards, bending left and about 465 yards from the tee is a sharp uphill climb (guessing about a 30' vertical rise) and this hill is covered by deep bunkers and fescue.  The fairway restarts 520 yards from tee (100 yards short of green center).  Green is very very small and two tiered. 


On tee shot player is faced with fairway that as it bends left has a very slight rise that peaks around 310-315 off tee , and then gradually goes downhill for next 40 yards.  Fairway is relatively narrow and the rough on both sides of this fairway has always been the thickest rough for championships at Brookline.  So off the tee, the decision for the tour player (unless they are fairly short off the tee) is do they hit driver and try to catch the downslope at 315...if they do and stay in fairway, most can reach the green (but it will be a very small target).  If they miss the fairway off the tee...no one will be able to hit their second to the restart of the fairway on top of the bunker/fescue hill...and if they try and fail, hitting into the hill means bogey 6 at best and 7 or 8 easy to result.  Laying up means a third shot of about 165 -170 that is absolutely totally blind as you look up the hill.


Other choice would be to hit 3 wood off tee and then long iron/hybrid to top of hill and then short wedge into green.


IMO the slight rise that peaks at 310-315 makes the tee shot a real strategic choice

[jeffwarne]

7 at The Bridge now has a small pot left center bunker that can be skirted by a tee shot left of it, flirting with the left gunch and left to right sloped fairway, or flown by a powerful player, either of which catches the speed slot of a left fairway resulting in 40-70 more yards.
The "pot bunker is actually a piece of the old left bunker which was mostlt replaced with fairway, which now makes it possible for the cunning golfer to access the slot without the ability to fly it, assuming he either draws the shot to hold the left to right slope or has enough umph to hold the line before breaking right down the hill to a long or even a shot iron approach.


A difficult shot in the prevailing summer wind off the left shoulder.
So the better player has the choice of hitting a club that won't reach the pot bunker or playing to the center or right side of the fairway(where the fairway ends)with a driver or less for beter players.


A definite choice off the tee,which makes the second far more difficult, though shorter maintained rough has reduced the penalty or need for a choice for longer hitters recently.


10 has the choice of laying up short of left centerline bunker with 2 iron or 3 wood for an elite player, drawing it around that bunker(hard with fairway and often wind sloping right) or carrying it in the right wind for for a better more powerful player.
Alternatively the player can hit it right center at the right centerline offset bunker if he knows his distances off the elevated very wind exposed tee. Or he can simply play down the right side as a three shotter.
Playing the tee shot down the right makes the layup more challenging with a centerline pot bunker about 115 short of the green and a semi cross bnker covering the left side of the fairway about 60 yards out.
The fairway is huge in all cases and the bunkers are well offset from each other but the first time you play it there can be confusion, especially in the wind, which is normal.
Deceiving tee shot, where the play is often more to the right than the eye would detect.


Both holes had a lot of fairway added where there previously was bunker(creating the "centerline" bunkers only because enough fairway was added on one side to make the bunker no longer flanking, and a small bit of bunker added(or retained) where there previously was fairway.

[Garland Bayley]

For most tour players a decision is made on the 2nd hole at Augusta National based on the hole location and (maybe) the wind. If the pin is far right, most will hit driver in anticipation of going for the middle of the green where the ball will move toward the hole for an easy birdie or potential eagle.
If the hole is located far left, most will lay up short of the fairway bunker and play their second shot short right and try to make birdie with a pitch and putt. In that circumstance, there is little purpose in hitting driver, because a second shot over the left bunker is no more likely to produce a birdie that a pitch from short right.

So a bunker on the outside of a dogleg will influence the first shot when an inside line of a dogleg greenside bunker guards a pin placement on a narrow section of green.

Did they build an entirely new green for #13 in the Open that gets you nearer the entirely new tee for #14 for the Open?

Has golf equipment gotten out of hand?
 

[Garland Bayley]

Think you will see one in June at the US Open.  Primrose #8 is Championship #14.  It is about 620 yards, bending left and about 465 yards from the tee is a sharp uphill climb (guessing about a 30' vertical rise) and this hill is covered by deep bunkers and fescue.  The fairway restarts 520 yards from tee (100 yards short of green center).  Green is very very small and two tiered. 


On tee shot player is faced with fairway that as it bends left has a very slight rise that peaks around 310-315 off tee , and then gradually goes downhill for next 40 yards.  Fairway is relatively narrow and the rough on both sides of this fairway has always been the thickest rough for championships at Brookline.  So off the tee, the decision for the tour player (unless they are fairly short off the tee) is do they hit driver and try to catch the downslope at 315...if they do and stay in fairway, most can reach the green (but it will be a very small target).  If they miss the fairway off the tee...no one will be able to hit their second to the restart of the fairway on top of the bunker/fescue hill...and if they try and fail, hitting into the hill means bogey 6 at best and 7 or 8 easy to result.  Laying up means a third shot of about 165 -170 that is absolutely totally blind as you look up the hill.


Other choice would be to hit 3 wood off tee and then long iron/hybrid to top of hill and then short wedge into green.


IMO the slight rise that peaks at 310-315 makes the tee shot a real strategic choice

So risking penal rough and restricted hack outs to gain a downhill boost to the tee shot is the decision.

[Jeff Schley]

Has golf equipment gotten out of hand?
 

It seems no one with a vested interest to keep the cash register ringing would admit so.