Are there truly three shot holes with a decision to make on the first shot?

[Garland Bayley]

Tommy's thread https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,70587.0.html suggests that after a couple of plays a par five with split fairways for the first shot ends up having no decision on the first shot. But, he suggests that split fairways for the second shot can still elicit a decision with each play.

Are there any truly three shot holes with a decision to be made on the first shot? Any examples? Any ideas of how one would be created?

[jeffwarne]

Do you mean par 5's with split fairways?
or any par 5.
Because there are countless examples of par 5's with a decision to be made on the first shot

[Garland Bayley]

Any true three shot hole.

[Carl Rogers]

Hole 13 at ANGC.  If the green can't be hit in two, then play a safe short tee shot.

[mike_malone]

Any par five without a decision on the first shot seems subpar.


 I’m just thinking of the Flynn courses in Philly and all of them require a decision on the tee shot, mostly to be in the best spot for the next shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Hole 13 at ANGC.  If the green can't be hit in two, then play a safe short tee shot.

Why would the green not be able to be hit in two?

[Ronald Montesano]

18 at the host course for the Dubai Desert Classic (concluded today on European Tour.)


Rory hit three-metal, because the right-side water (first pond) was within range. He failed to draw it, had 267 left, found Davy Jones' Locker fronting green.


Both Blandy and Hovey hit driver off tee in playoff (Hovey must have been more confident) and both carried water with ease.


It seems that Rory overthought things, which is what the architect might have foreseen.

[Jeff Schley]

In terms of line or club selection (distance) or either?

[Thomas Dai]

Not necessarily specific holes but more likely conditions and circumstances .. wind and weather, status of event/game/match, hole location, can the player get to the green in 2/3/4 etc.
Play the shot that makes the next shot easy.
atb

[Jim_Coleman]

   I suppose any cape like hole where how much one bites off determines how close to the green one gets. Is it #6 at Bay Hill where this question is presented?

[Garland Bayley]

Any par five without a decision on the first shot seems subpar.


 I’m just thinking of the Flynn courses in Philly and all of them require a decision on the tee shot, mostly to be in the best spot for the next shot.

Could you be more explicit and give an example of one of those decisions?

[Garland Bayley]

Not necessarily specific holes but more likely conditions and circumstances .. wind and weather, status of event/game/match, hole location, can the player get to the green in 2/3/4 etc.
Play the shot that makes the next shot easy.
atb

Wind and weather could obviously require a decision to be made. What about nice weather and casual round?

[Sven Nilsen]

Pacific Dunes #18


For those going for it in two, the question is what club do you need to hit to carry or just skirt the bunker and end of short of the long right trouble (bunkers and rough).


For the stronger player, this is rarely a driver hole.


Sven

[Ronald Montesano]

18th at Leatherstocking. The panoramic shot at the top of this page is what you face! The putting surface is over by the ornate clubhouse/hotel. Wonder if Bryson could carry the green?

https://www.otesaga.com/golf/course-info-rates

Decision One: Do I tee off from the Island tee, built from an Arrabal-esque automobile graveyard?

Decision Two: Am I sheeeting myself because I have to carry some amount of water?

Decision Three: How much of said puddle do I dare carry?

[mike_malone]

Garland,


  Two par fives with staggered bunkers on the right are numbers 3 at Philly CC and 6 at Lehigh. You must decide which bunker to carry with the chance that you may fall short in the bunker with one shot or go through the fairway with a shot that isn’t bold enough. Then there are interesting bunkers in the layup area that sit on either side of the fairway but not parallel.
So your tee shot decision must take into account which bunker to deal with in the layup area.


15 at Huntingdon Valley is similar. The more left you safely go off the tee the more the gorgeous layup bunker becomes a handicap for the second shot.


There is also 7 at Lancaster with the angle over the river.


I feel that a decision needs to be made on every par five at my home course, Rolling Green. I can’t execute most of them but I try to realize how the next shot affects the tee shot.

[Garland Bayley]

Pacific Dunes #18


For those going for it in two, the question is what club do you need to hit to carry or just skirt the bunker and end of short of the long right trouble (bunkers and rough).


For the stronger player, this is rarely a driver hole.


Sven

I went back and modified the subject, because you have turned the topic to long par fours.   

[JESII]

Mayday, I'm curious about your Flynn comment.


The two/three par fives at Huntingdon Valley don't require a decision from the tee. At Rolling Green, I can see a good player having to make a decision on #7, but not on 9 or 17.


Manufacturer's #7, nope. #9, nope. #12, nope. #15 nope...#18 to top green, nope.




#16 at Applebrook (by Gil Hanse) certainly forces the better player to consider if they can carry the creek crossing the fairway. The benefit of doing so is an easily reachable (although not necessarily easily hittable) green in two shots. Opting for the conservative tee shot leaves an interesting second shot as there is a nasty bunker right in the middle of a large flat fairway. Pretty cool hole on pretty boring, compromised land.








Seeing your most recent response now so will reply on a later post...

[Sven Nilsen]

Pacific Dunes #18


For those going for it in two, the question is what club do you need to hit to carry or just skirt the bunker and end of short of the long right trouble (bunkers and rough).


For the stronger player, this is rarely a driver hole.


Sven

I went back and modified the subject, because you have turned the topic to long par fours. 

18 at Pac is par 5, but you knew that.

[Michael Felton]

13th hole at Burnham & Berrow is about 570 from the back tees. There is a bridal path that runs across the fairway at around 270ish. For a good player, there is the question of what club to hit to set yourself up for success. Driver might bounce over the bridal path leaving you much closer, but also could go in it (I think it's in play although I haven't been there in some time, so it's not a good spot to finish in). Or you lay up short of it, which makes your second shot that much longer and it's tight where you're playing to.

[Carl Nichols]

Garland:

Can you be more specific?  On many par 5's, I start with the same basic choice I make on many par 4's--whether to hit driver or something shorter but more accurate.   That choice depends on a lot of factors; on a par 5, one factor is whether I could even reach in 2 if I hit driver.  If not, then depending on other factors I might opt for a shorter club.   

[Jeff_Brauer]

If I had a true 3 shotter for most players (ignoring those 330 yard plus hitters on tour) I would have considered gradually narrowing the fw to create a gradation of how much risk to take for added length and shorter third shot.


In other cases, it might be a good opportunity for a narrow fw and true no strategy, penal tee shot just to make sure you are in play for the rest of the hole, which then plays like a short par 4.


On a dogleg hole, it may still pay to shade to the inside of the DL to shorten the hole the rest of the way.


As noted it could also be a strategy similar to any par 4 and be okay.

[Garland Bayley]

Pacific Dunes #18


For those going for it in two, the question is what club do you need to hit to carry or just skirt the bunker and end of short of the long right trouble (bunkers and rough).


For the stronger player, this is rarely a driver hole.


Sven

I went back and modified the subject, because you have turned the topic to long par fours. 

18 at Pac is par 5, but you knew that.

Yes, but you prefixed your answer with those trying to reach in two. I guess for players for which it is questionable whether they can carry the bunker the decision is do they try to carry the bunker or do they play short of it.

For those that cannot carry the bunker, would you consider there to be a decision to play short of the bunker left leaving the need to elevate the second vs playing out to the right to take a longer route around the bunker a decision that needs to be made, or is there an obvious choice? What about whether you are playing the winter tees vs. the summer tees?

[Jeff Schley]

Can we ask Tyrrell Hatton?  I'm sure he has something to say about this.

[Garland Bayley]

In terms of line or club selection (distance) or either?

Either (any).

[Garland Bayley]

18th at Leatherstocking. The panoramic shot at the top of this page is what you face! The putting surface is over by the ornate clubhouse/hotel. Wonder if Bryson could carry the green?

https://www.otesaga.com/golf/course-info-rates

Decision One: Do I tee off from the Island tee, built from an Arrabal-esque automobile graveyard?

Decision Two: Am I sheeeting myself because I have to carry some amount of water?

Decision Three: How much of said puddle do I dare carry?

So essentially, how much do I carry on a cape hole tee shot.