Dogleg bunkers inside or outside the dogleg

[Rob Marshall]

Is there a preferred position of the placement of a bunker on a dogleg? Inside or outside?

[Steve Lang]

   as a short hitter I prefer them on the outside! 

[Matt_Cohn]

To start with the obvious answer: yes, the preferred placement is typically inside the dogleg. Since most people would ideally want to cut the dogleg, putting a bunker there would generally force a strategic decision about whether to take that on.


In most cases, the outside of a dogleg is not where you want to be anyway, so a bunker there would be punitive but not especially strategic.


BUT---I'm sure there are plenty of good holes with bunkers on the outside of the dogleg. and there certainly are SOME holes where the outside of the dogleg is the preferred side. (A lot of the ones that come to mind immediately have another obstacle on the inside, too.)

[David Ober]

  as a short hitter I prefer them on the outside! 

Amen!!!

[Ally Mcintosh]

To start with the obvious answer: yes, the preferred placement is typically inside the dogleg. Since most people would ideally want to cut the dogleg, putting a bunker there would generally force a strategic decision about whether to take that on.


In most cases, the outside of a dogleg is not where you want to be anyway, so a bunker there would be punitive but not especially strategic.


BUT---I'm sure there are plenty of good holes with bunkers on the outside of the dogleg. and there certainly are SOME holes where the outside of the dogleg is the preferred side. (A lot of the ones that come to mind immediately have another obstacle on the inside, too.)

Matt,


I’m not sure your thinking makes sense there. Either side (inside or out) can be the preferred angle dependent on how the green and its hazards are laid out.


The primary advantage of protecting the inside is that - contrary to what is said above - it helps bring strategic golf to the shorter hitter. By asking a short hitter to go the long way round to gain a better angle, you are not really giving him much of a choice.


But the outside is perfectly acceptable and some of the most strategic courses I know have many or most of their holes protected on the outside of the dogleg. Better for strategy if a gentle curve rather than sharp angle of course.

[Thomas Dai]

Deception of the players eye and the mind is an aspect that needs consideration.
The bunker whether inside or outside the dogleg can be the lessor of the two evils with the really nasty area being on the opposite side of the dogleg.
atb

[Ally Mcintosh]

Deception of the players eye and the mind is an aspect that needs consideration.
The bunker whether inside or outside the dogleg can be the lessor of the two evils with the really nasty area being on the opposite side of the dogleg.
atb

Correct. This deception / temptation actually works very well when the outside is bunkered. After all, the hole can only be called a dogleg because there is something on the inside that defines it as such.

[Jeff_Brauer]

This reminds me of one of my early remodel projects where the club president looked at a dogleg left, and wanted the fw bunker on the left saying it was philosophically correct.  The next hole was a dl right, and he again suggested a bunker on the left, again thinking it was philosophically perfect.  When questioned, he turned to me and said "Isn't it true that you usually guard the "long cut?"  His real philosophy was no bunkers on the right because he sliced, and all bunkers about five yards past his normal best drive driving distance.

When I used outside fw bunkers, they were more target bunkers to aim at.  They seemed to be useful on the left side of the 1st hole when seen from the clubhouse, for example.


Occasionally you can use an outside the DL carry bunker because the green opens up from the outside of the DL.  Riv no. 3 is an example.  It usually takes a strong hazard like a pond or a tree on the inside front corner of the green to force golfers to not play the shorter inside of the dogleg route, because that is how strong the inclination is.


Hogan was quoted as saying there should never be a bunker on the outside of the dogleg, and philosophically (and ignoring both potential aesthetics and/or combinations of bunkers that set up something on the tee shot) correct.  But, as we always say here, it's about fitting the site as much as anything.  If one more outside the dogleg fw bunker gets built, even if you are strongly against it, no animals were hurt in the building of that bunker, the world goes on much as before without spinning off its axis, and it's not really that important in the big scheme of things.

[Adam Lawrence]

Ally is of course right, but I have to say that in my experience, bunkers on the outside of doglegs are usually anti-strategic and there for aiming/eye candy purposes. Therefore I generally look at them with a degree of suspicion.

[Steve Lang]

   if an outside DL bunker is used, having it aligned with the turning point gives one pause for thought... especially as the DL angle reduces below say below 150 degrees?

[Matt_Cohn]

It usually takes a strong hazard like a pond or a tree on the inside front corner of the green to force golfers to not play the shorter inside of the dogleg route, because that is how strong the inclination is.

Exactly. Almost all of the notable holes I can think of with prominent bunkers outside the dogleg have worse trouble inside the dogleg. Think 18 at Pebble, 18 at Augusta, etc. As Jeff said, it takes something pretty serious to make the outside of a dogleg truly the preferred line.


One other thing: carrying a hazard is, generally speaking, more satisfying and interesting than trying to get your ball to stop just short of one. It's easy to set up a carry-bunker on the inside of a dogleg. It's a lot harder to set up a carry-bunker to reach the outside of a dogleg. Here's a sketch of something that seems workable, but you just don't see it a lot.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Matt,


On good links courses, it really does matter which side of the fairway you come in from, particularly if you are a relatively low spin player like me. Gentle, sweeping doglegs (rather than sharp, obvious ones) can really be bunkered on either side as long as the green works with them.


Ally

[Tom_Doak]

Ally is of course right, but I have to say that in my experience, bunkers on the outside of doglegs are usually anti-strategic and there for aiming/eye candy purposes. Therefore I generally look at them with a degree of suspicion.

Me, too.  There are not many examples of bunkers on the outside of the dogleg on courses built by any of the Golden Age masters, and whenever I see one I suspect it is an addition, which usually proves to be correct.

[Pete_Pittock]

Seattle GC opening hole is a dogleg right, with a bunker on the left. I aimed for the area of the bunker assuming that the bunker predicted the best way to play the hole. When I got to my ball in the fairway just short of the trap I found myself rewarded with the green open for a running shot, would have been blocked by greenside bunkering if I had played to the corner of the dogleg.

[Doug Wright]

At my club we had a few bunkers on the outside of doglegs that mainly served as catchment features to keep balls from running into lakes or streams. Gil Hanse removed those; however, I still think he made a mistake removing one on the outside of the dogleg right 15^th hole (blasphemy, I know…). The outside of the dogleg is the much preferred line for a shot into a small angled green with a narrow opening, and that bunker was quite strategic. Gil’s argument was that removing it brought a creek into play; of course, the creek is 50 yards further left and I’ve never seen anyone hit it there.

[Kalen Braley]

As another example, Olympic Club Lake 16 is certainly a hole where you'd want them on the outside of the dogleg....even if its kind of a longer gentle curving one!