Holes that go Uphill Downhill Uphill ... holes that go Downhill Uphill Downhill

[Paul Rudovsky]

I am frankly surprised at this thread.  For several years when I am keeping careful notes about golf holes, I note the L-->R, R-->L or straight nature of holes and do the same for changes in elevation which can be U-U, D-D, U-D, D-U, U-D-U, D-U-D...and other varieties (DDD for supper downhill holes etc etc).  While I have not aggregated the numbers, I think U-D-U and D-U-D are both very common especially at courses built on fairly hilly (not necessarily mountainous) terrain.  Tons and tons of examples...#1 at Sand Hills...#10 at Sand Hills...#9 at Pebble...#4 at Brookline...#18 at Southern Hills...Southern Pines is full of them...so is Camden CC (SC)...em thinks Atlantic and The Bridge also fit the bill on a number of holes...

[Zac Blair]

Muirfield Village has a par five at the end maybe 15?

Old 15 (before renovation) is a pretty good example of the legit up down up I’m referring too! Cheers

[Zac Blair]

I am frankly surprised at this thread.  For several years when I am keeping careful notes about golf holes, I note the L-->R, R-->L or straight nature of holes and do the same for changes in elevation which can be U-U, D-D, U-D, D-U, U-D-U, D-U-D...and other varieties (DDD for supper downhill holes etc etc).  While I have not aggregated the numbers, I think U-D-U and D-U-D are both very common especially at courses built on fairly hilly (not necessarily mountainous) terrain.  Tons and tons of examples...#1 at Sand Hills...#10 at Sand Hills...#9 at Pebble...#4 at Brookline...#18 at Southern Hills...Southern Pines is full of them...so is Camden CC (SC)...em thinks Atlantic and The Bridge also fit the bill on a number of holes...

Again I don’t think I did a great job of explaining because virtually all of your examples don’t fit the bill imo.
I’m aware there are a lot of holes that play through undulating terrain 

[corey miller]

#5 Sleepy Hollow

[jeffwarne]

#5 Sleepy Hollow

good one!

To Paul's point
2 at Southern Hills fits-especially for a shorter hitter.
A longer hitter is merely playing an up and over tee shot and hitting an uphill second off a downhill lie.


4 and 12 at The Bridge-now, after tees were lowered 25 feet.


But they are par 4's so the better/longer player is never actually playing "downhill" just and up and over tee shot, followed by an uphill shot.
I don't think there were any originally with the old elevated tees(maybe #3?) where there were virtually no uphill tee shots(3, slightly, and 9)


The only uphill tee shot at Atlantic is 8,10 or 18 and 8's just flat after that and 18 continues uphill-yes there's some downhill on 10 second shot if you only hit your second shot 50 yards, otherwise you're simply continuing uphill as the drive was.


Perhaps Paul is playing shorter tees which would be lower and create more uphill on tee shots at The Bridge and Atlantic.


None match the terrain of 16 at The Tree Farm though-and no chance the proposed green at TTF 16 would be built at the above two courses.
Longer par 5's are going to be the only holes that cause a better player to play uphill, then PLAY downhill, then play uphill.
Though I suspect some of Zac's Tour buddies will be playing 16 as an up and over hole with merely an uphill second off a downhill lie.

[Michael Moore]

Fourth hole, Enniscrone
 
Eighth hole, Ballybunion (Cashen)

[Michael Whitaker]

Zac - the type of hole you describe plays very differently for long and short hitters. Tom Doak (in my mind) routes a lot of holes like this… where you have to hit to a plateau for either your tee shot or approach (or both), depending on whether the hole is a par 4 or 5. Depending on the player’s carry distance these holes can play like roller coasters. The par 4 first hole at Cape Kidnappers is a good example. Tee shot plays over a shallow valley uphill to a slightly elevated plateau, then the second plays over another deeper valley to the green atop a second plateau. If you can’t (or don’t) make those carries, especially the second one, you are down in a deep hollow hitting at a target above your head. These hype holes can be thrilling if you can pull off the shots required, but come up short and you are playing to targets way above your head. Too much of that can be very taxing. I remember having a bad day at St Andrews Beach and coming away thinking I had played a course with 18 uphill holes. I was worn out. 🥴
Another hole that is like the one you describe is the first par 5 at Cabot Links… or, at least it was the first par 5 when I played there… I understand they have changed the routing. It had that roller coaster effect and is one of best par 5s I’ve ever played.

[ward peyronnin]

Does a biaritz with back hole location count?

[Joe_Tucholski]

I am frankly surprised at this thread.  For several years when I am keeping careful notes about golf holes, I note the L-->R, R-->L or straight nature of holes and do the same for changes in elevation which can be U-U, D-D, U-D, D-U, U-D-U, D-U-D...and other varieties (DDD for supper downhill holes etc etc).  While I have not aggregated the numbers, I think U-D-U and D-U-D are both very common especially at courses built on fairly hilly (not necessarily mountainous) terrain.  Tons and tons of examples...#1 at Sand Hills...#10 at Sand Hills...#9 at Pebble...#4 at Brookline...#18 at Southern Hills...Southern Pines is full of them...so is Camden CC (SC)...em thinks Atlantic and The Bridge also fit the bill on a number of holes...

I've only played Pebble and Southern Pines of the courses listed and would call #9 at Pebble slightly down hill.  Sure there is a swale of like 10-15 feet and then maybe 4-5 feet up at the green.  Definitely not up or down a hill.


If #9 at Pebble is down up down there are many courses in the UK that go up, down, up, down, up, down, up...but that's essentially fairway undulation not a hill.

[Michael Moore]

Cape Cod National 17
Springbrook 15
Sunningdale (Old) 7

[Tim_Weiman]

Zac,


Pelham Country Club (NY) starts with an uphill tee shot, downhill second and uphill approach Par 5.


At least it did when I was a kid back in the 1960s. Technology may have turned it into just two shots with both uphill for many members.

[Mike_Trenham]

Although not perfect examples:


#13 at Pine Valley
#8 at Stonewall Old


Both fit the description.  What I think about on those two holes that works well is the use of a broken fairway that can make the longest hitters temper down a bit.


I say this because the example of GMGC 18 is one where technology now has the longest hitters landing on the downslope and the balls rocketing dozens of yards forward.  Extra room behind your back tee would be a welcome asset if available for future length gains.

[Mike H]

18 at Forest Hills CC in Richmond, IN could possibly fit the bill.

[Phil Burr]

The 13th at Los Caballeros in Wickenburg is 600 yards from the tips and has much up & down and more up & down as almost any hole I can recall playing.  Played like a pro (from plateau to plateau to plateau) it might be fairly level, but for mortals there will be a substantial amount of up and down.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I am frankly surprised at this thread.  For several years when I am keeping careful notes about golf holes, I note the L-->R, R-->L or straight nature of holes and do the same for changes in elevation which can be U-U, D-D, U-D, D-U, U-D-U, D-U-D...and other varieties (DDD for supper downhill holes etc etc).  While I have not aggregated the numbers, I think U-D-U and D-U-D are both very common especially at courses built on fairly hilly (not necessarily mountainous) terrain.  Tons and tons of examples...#1 at Sand Hills...#10 at Sand Hills...#9 at Pebble...#4 at Brookline...#18 at Southern Hills...Southern Pines is full of them...so is Camden CC (SC)...em thinks Atlantic and The Bridge also fit the bill on a number of holes...

I've only played Pebble and Southern Pines of the courses listed and would call #9 at Pebble slightly down hill.  Sure there is a swale of like 10-15 feet and then maybe 4-5 feet up at the green.  Definitely not up or down a hill.


If #9 at Pebble is down up down there are many courses in the UK that go up, down, up, down, up, down, up...but that's essentially fairway undulation not a hill.

He also cited #4 at Brookline. Zero Chance of that. It's not even "D-U"...it's just "D"...;-)
It is 100% downhill on the tee shot to the bottom and then FLAT into the FLATTEST green on the course.

[mike_beene]

These holes are running together, but somewhere in 15 to 17 at Congressional Blue don’t you get this?

[Mark Kiely]

The par-4 17th at Santa Barbara Golf Club is basically three humps: The tee box, then a little barranca in front of it, a knobby hill where the fairway starts, then a descent into a deep ravine, then the green is up on top of the hill again. I'm not sure if the fairway knob is higher or lower elevation than the tee. This hole also has big trees down one side, which made turf conditions poorer than the rest of the course presumably because not enough sunlight gets down in that deep ravine.

[Jim Sherma]

The problem with up and over holes is that distance is given an even greater advantage assuming that a longer hitter can get to the top or even over to the downslope on the other side while the shorter hitter is landing into the upslope. Potentially you can offset this advantage with land that allows for an uphill second off of a downhill lie, or some form of blind hazard over the horizon line of the tee sot (probably not preferred as many players would feel that these situations are unfair).


I have a hazy memory of a Donald Ross passage about up and over tee shots but I can't say for sure.

[Carl Nichols]

These holes are running together, but somewhere in 15 to 17 at Congressional Blue don’t you get this?

Mike,

I don't think so.  15 (like 14) is a par 4 with a downhill tee shot and then an uphill second.  16 is a par 5 with a downhill (or slightly downhill if you're long) tee shot, and then the rest of the hole is gently uphill/flat.  17 is a par 4 with a basically flat tee shot that could possibly be downhill if you're really long and want to try and get down to the bottom of the little valley--but in either circumstance you don't play up and then down again after the tee shot.

All of those holes have a single dip or valley in the middle of them.  The one hole that has two dips or valleys is the par 9th, but I can't think of many (any?) ways in which you would get home in regulation by playing it up-down-up or down-up-down.   






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[Jon Claydon]

Isn't Sand Hills #1 just down then up?

[Michael Moore]

Woods Hole 7
Winchester 16
Brae Burn 9

[Wayne_Kozun]

Another hole that is like the one you describe is the first par 5 at Cabot Links… or, at least it was the first par 5 when I played there… I understand they have changed the routing. It had that roller coaster effect and is one of best par 5s I’ve ever played.

That was the second hole in the first few years but is now the 11th hole.  Depending on where your second shot lands the third may be more level than downhill.  Here's the photo from the review on this site.

[Tony Dear]

Zac, the 1st at Palouse Ridge is eastern Washington has the topography you're talking about off the back tee - uphill drive, plateau, down then up to the green. But at 463 yards it's probably not long enough to count and it obviously doesn't play as a three-shotter for the guy playing from the back tee.