Does a caddie help in appreciating a course?

[archie_struthers]

 




Again my thought 💭 was to appreciate the course from an architectural sense a free unencumbered walk is best. Then another one maybe backwards without playing.


But as to looping I’m totally against Sven as to licking out clubs or giving too much info. Don’t think 🤔 ever gave club info to anyone who could play a little bit yardage and conditions as to what it’s playing was paramount. If they started to pull a bad club it had to be really bad for me to intercede. Lack of confidence (indecision)  is often a bigger impediment to good golf shots than anything. 


Back to the question ,  a caddie knowing historical info on a golf course is a great resource !

[Mike Wagner]

If you haven't had a kid that's a "C" caddie that's genuinely trying to become an "A," and doing it to learn about life, then you're missing out.

[corey miller]

Actually Sven you may see guys like me (whatever that means) take four hours and a half hours but you won't see me take over four hours .


I do suppose two putts are quicker than three putts but what is the deal in a friendly game with lining up and fretting over a second or third putt. 


Oh well different view of the game.

[Sven Nilsen]

Archie -

Perhaps Pine Valley and Bandon are different worlds.  Can't tell you how many times we hear someone say "I never would have hit that much club if you hadn't told me to" while their ball is sitting on the green.

Most people who come out here don't know how to play in the wind.  We're here to help them figure it out.  And often that means playing whatever tricks we can to make them hit the right club or the right shot, even lying about the actual yardage from time to time.

I worked at Olympia Fields before coming out here.  There is a decided difference in the caddying style at a private club where the members know their course.  I rarely gave club advice there unless asked.  Every once in a while you'd have a guest who wanted to know the local knowledge (this one plays uphill a club, you want to stay left, etc.) and the round would be a bit different.

I'd also think there's a difference between the quality of player you saw at PV and what we get out here.  The average handicap for a resort golfer is north of 15.  Obviously, you're going to treat a stronger player different than someone who is scared to be there.  Part of the skill is knowing how to read the room (something VK touched on) and knowing just how involved your player wants you to be with their decisions.  Most of the time, they're throwing themselves fully into your hands, as they know they're out of their element.

I once had a old pro out here from the San Jose area.  Before the round started he told me all he wanted was the actual distance and he'd figure everything out for himself.  He was good enough to make all of the adjustments he needed to.  On the 6th hole he sniped a drive left into a sticky lie where he had one foot on a road for his stance and a pump system edging into his line.  As he was trying to figure out how to get the club on the ball, I suggested he could probably take relief.  The conversation went something like this:

Him - "We talked about this on the first tee.  I'd don't want any extra advice."

Me - "You're completely right, my bad, won't happen again."

He proceeded to try to hit the ball as it lay, duffed it into a worse lie and went on to make double.  As we were walking up to the green his tone immediately changed.  All of a sudden we were best buds with him asking me about the area, what we do for fun, etc., even though he was on the way to finishing his worst hole of the round.  I ended up driving him into town after the round to buy a bunch of fresh seafood that he had packed and took home on their flight that evening.

In the end, it was a lesson to me not to overstep.  There are caddies out there who want to break down your swing on the golf course, just as there are caddies that are only going to make suggestions if asked.  There are tour quality guys out here who get treated like dirt, just as there are bag carriers that guests fall in love with because they're a good hang.  The best caddies can play every role, and they know how you play and what you want (or more importantly need) from a caddie at a very early phase of the relationship.

Sven

[Kalen Braley]

To Brad's point; this thread has further confirmed that this group, as a whole, takes itself way too seriously on the golf course.

If you're having communication issues with the caddy, simply based on the employer/employee nature of the relationship, it's on you.

Jim,

I think this really needs to be clarified, because it takes two to have good communication.

In my instance, I was an unaccompanied guest at a high profile private, and my caddy quite frankly was just punching the clock.  As the "employer" was I to make a scene, embarrass my host who had set it up, and send him off sans tip 5 or 6 holes into the round when it was apparent his surly behavior and complete unwillingness to listen to me were not going to change?

[corey miller]

Sven


You caddie at Bandon? Perhaps the perfect example of a knucklehead player with caddie taking more time than they would sans caddie.  Do they get into a catcher's position with you above them directing as they line up the second or third putt?


Surely you have wanted to roll your eyes at all the extra "help" needed by the over 15 handicap crowd?


I would suspect I am one of the few that actually played a "competitive" round at Bandon upon the opening of Old Macdonald in the Macdonald Cup. 


The average knucklehead does not know that it is piss poor manners (IMO) for a 15 handicap to have a caddie line up multiple putts but perhaps that is just how I have been socialized into the game.

[V. Kmetz]

I find that an excellent caddie is invaluable, particularly on a complex golf course.   

That being said, as a former caddie I can usually determine their value within the first hole or two and adjust expectations accordingly.   It's a two-way street.

That is knowing and fair...that is a true nuanced point...and that's something i did not realize in my teens and 20s and what came with age...anybody worth the transaction at all is going to know that I know my shit and they can benefit. And I'm cool with not offering a thing beyond what they want and come to expect, whereas that would've chaffed me when I was younger.  That's even with long time club members, who despite my rep as the top man, a few don't want a putt read, EVER.


To aspects of the other posts since I last wrote...


Links golf and climate conditions or a destination course has never been my ken.  I'm a former caddiemaster and part-time private club caddie for 40 years and I'm there for the fellowship, the experience and the rewards equally.

[Mike Hendren]

What continues to baffle me after 20 years on this website is the implied supposition that all golfers can execute the shot that is called for. 


When one cannot, the game becomes a long multiplication equation where the last variable is zero.


Bogey

[Sven Nilsen]

Do they get into a catcher's position with you above them directing as they line up the second or third putt?

Corey:


I rarely have to read second putts, and third putts (unless they're to win the hole) are out of the question.


All jokes aside, it is not the players with caddies that slow down play out here.  Even having just one caddie in the group means errant shots are found quicker, players don't get lost on the course (it happens) and the little tidbits of advice often overheard (and left untipped) get them to the green quicker.

I'm a former caddiemaster and part-time private club caddie for 40 years and I'm there for the fellowship, the experience and the rewards equally.

VK -

We get all of that as well, whether its the annual visits from friends I made years ago or just the experience of pounding out 8 rounds in 4 days with the same group.  Plus, we get to work (and have to know) 5 different courses these days, instead of plodding the same 18 on a daily basis.

What continues to baffle me after 20 years on this website is the implied supposition that all golfers can execute the shot that is called for. 

Bogey -

Getting a golfer to play within their capabilities is a skill.  Discretion being the better part of valor often loses out to the false dreams created by the one time their 8 iron actually went 150 yards.

Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Bathroom attendants, Uber drivers, and Caddies are best appreciated when mandatory, obligatory, or statutory.

[archie_struthers]

 


Sven, perfectly answered !  Quite sure you are a great looper

[Kalen Braley]

Bathroom attendants, Uber drivers, and Caddies are best appreciated when mandatory, obligatory, or statutory.

John,

Not sure I follow, its not like you're hanging out with those first two for hours on end and having direct interaction over figuring out dozens of golf shots in varying conditions.

Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other scenario where you are committing to spending that much time and money with someone sight unseen.  Even a blind date, you can torpedo in the 1st half hour if things aren't working out. Hell, for that matter, I can spend 15 minutes with someone in a work meeting and figure out I don't want to spend another second with them...and visa versa I'm sure! 

[Sven Nilsen]

Kalen:


How do you know how much time John spends with bathroom attendants?


Sven

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't underestimate the value of a great bathroom attendant. They offer both longterm and immediate lifesaving services. The unsung heroes of many a lost night.

[Kalen Braley]

Kalen:

How do you know how much time John spends with bathroom attendants?

Sven

Holy hell, warning next time please.  Just spit out my beverage on my laptop! 

Barney in some ways I'm jealous of your rambling lifestyle in the high-falutin places you frequent.  I can count the number of bathroom attendants I've seen on one hand. Should I find myself in a tight spot, good to know they can be counted on. And its not just them, "Fight Club" has certainly taught me many valuable lessons about the unsung heros of society...

[John Kavanaugh]

Bathroom attendants are there to protect the establishment from vandalism, rampant drug use and unauthorized sexual perversions. Kinda like a mandatory forecaddies.

[Ryan Van Culin]

As a caddie, I tend to steer away from clubbing players because most won't admit their true average distance. I had 2 players argue with me about yardages on the range pre-round, then I lasered them, and they still said it was wrong because "I hit my 6-iron farther than that." So, in this case the flag was 177y, and if they get on the course and I say it's a 5-hybrid, and they ask the yardage and I say 177, they will be very angry.


Also, I made the mistake of reading a chip for a guy who asked that I not read putts or chips. Totally my fault. It was the 13th hole, and I slipped up. He was visibly upset, but chipped it to tap-in. He asked me to read putts and chips the rest of the round. I'm not saying I was right, I was wrong to do that, but I didn't do it on purpose, and I think he realized we could help each other. Additionally, he was a member of the opposing club in an interclub match, so I don't know if they think we might give the members any bias. Maybe that factored into his thinking.


I'd be interested to hear from other caddies, but at our club the majority of the caddies are around scratch or better, or have played in HS, college, etc. Is that similar in most caddyshacks? The guys I caddie for are genuinely blown away when they ask my handicap.

[John Kavanaugh]

The guys I caddie for are genuinely blown away when they ask my handicap.

How does that work?

[Kalen Braley]

Seeing how this thread has long since left the barn and diverted into a Caddy group-therapy session, I wanted to include my best experience and why I enjoyed it so much.

1)  He was prompt and outward appearances seemed to indicate he was eager for the loop.
2)  In general he didn't say much, but was quick to help when asked.
3)  He was Johnny on the spot, and then some, in looking for and finding errant balls.
4)  As a tie in to #3, the guy hustled his butt off as it was a double bag scenario. (The only time I had to wait was when my partner and I missed on opposing sides of the fairway, which is completely understandable)
5)  He never offered one unsolicited piece of golf-related advice.
6)  #3 and 4 again, can't overstate how good he was in this area.

P.S.  On a somewhat related note, often times the most enjoyable part of playing a new course is learning the greens and trying to figure them out.  Yes 3 putts will ensue, but I actually enjoy getting fooled by a 20+ putt that breaks in the opposite way that I was expecting.

[JMEvensky]

Don't underestimate the value of a great bathroom attendant. They offer both longterm and immediate lifesaving services. The unsung heroes of many a lost night.

I'm wondering what the percentage here is old enough to remember men's room attendants. I make the over/under 10%.

[John Kavanaugh]

Don't underestimate the value of a great bathroom attendant. They offer both longterm and immediate lifesaving services. The unsung heroes of many a lost night.

I'm wondering what the percentage here is old enough to remember men's room attendants. I make the over/under 10%.

The bathroom attendants at Charleston airport seem duplicitous given they are behind security. The ones in Casinos are the guys who may have saved your life. I've had caddies tell me that gentlemen's clubs often have an observer whose job is to make sure your shoes stay pointed north.

[Tim Martin]

Don't underestimate the value of a great bathroom attendant. They offer both longterm and immediate lifesaving services. The unsung heroes of many a lost night.

I'm wondering what the percentage here is old enough to remember men's room attendants. I make the over/under 10%.

The bathroom attendants at Charleston airport seem duplicitous given they are behind security. The ones in Casinos are the guys who may have saved your life. I've had caddies tell me that gentlemen's clubs often have an observer whose job is to make sure your shoes stay pointed north.

The attendants at the Masters are real pros. They’re thinking three to four guys ahead all day long. It hurts them for you to wait.

[John Kavanaugh]

I was kicked out of Cub Scouts and turned back from being a volunteer fireman, so it's not like I could do a better job than the worst caddie I ever had. I appreciate what those dudes do and love them to death. Sorry for any misunderstandings.

[MKrohn]

I am unaccustomed to caddies and generally find the process a bit jarring and that double bagging stuff is a nightmare. Most of our group would just prefer someone knowledgeable from the club to walk around with us.


I work in metres, so generally just hand the caddie my range finder and get them to tell me the distance. We also play a lot in wind and think in terms of one, two, three club breezes, 'its 180 yards into the fan" doesn't do a lot for me.


The caddies in South Africa can be a little hit and miss but its good when you crack it for one of the older guys. Was playing with a mate at Royal Durban, my guy asks me a whole lot of questions before we tee off so i figure they are betting on the game. I started reasonably poorly after drinking my bodyweight in Windhoeks the night before and had already produced a power shank. My guy says, "you are a good golfer but off the wrong handicap".

[corey miller]

Sven


I was at Bandon and the caddie's were awesome....


Did not love that we were running a tournament that Mr. Keiser was participating in and we could not keep the same caddie for multiple days.  Again though, all were awesome.


Perhaps you mistook what I was trying to say? Clueless players with a caddie can actually lengthen a round.  They rely too much on a caddie and ask for ridiculous things while waiting for the attention. 


I understand a caddie is in a difficult situation, and that is why I blame the PLAYER not the caddie.  I suspect the average 15 handicap at Bandon thinks the caddie is supposed to do everything a tour caddie they see on TV would do. 

And that is why I made the crack about needing a caddie to line up a third and fourth put and to run after divots or put turf repair mix down.


My experience is that at many of the more prestigious clubs that caddies are more empowered to keep the game moving etc etc because of the culture.