Does a caddie help in appreciating a course?

[Rick Sides]

I can say that working at a very high-end club for many years that the hiring of caddies is very political.  Some loopers are really helpful and knowledgeable resources to have.  I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards.  I have even picked up caddies walking down the street who have come from an all night bender who can barely stay awake    A good caddy can really make for a fun round!

[Mark Kiely]

I've only used a caddie a handful of times but I would say it accelerates your ability to recognize nuance in the design. If it's somewhere you'll play over and over, you'd learn these things through repeated exposure anyway. But if it's somewhere you're playing once on a vacation, you may, for example, never have a tee shot land in a "speed slot," and without a caddie or knowledgeable playing partner, you'd never know it exists. So yes, I think a caddie helps appreciate an interesting design.

[Tim Martin]

I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards. 

The best caddies will factor the elements(wind, turf firmness) into the equation and tell you how long the shot will play. I’m always amazed that anyone will ask a caddie what club to hit on a one off round. If they say the shot will play 180 yards the smart money picks their own club.

[Brad Lawrence]

I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards. 

The best caddies will factor the elements(wind, turf firmness) into the equation and tell you how long the shot will play. I’m always amazed that anyone will ask a caddie what club to hit on a one off round. If they say the shot will play 180 yards the smart money picks their own club.

I’ve done a fair bit of caddying through the years.  I agree with what you and I don’t think players understand how different each player’s expectations are of a caddy.  I would advise all players to be very clear early in the round in exactly what is expected.  From my experience, the caddie would be the best player in the group 9 times out of 10, yet many players treat you as if you are a snot nosed, know nothing.  They want you to carry the bag and shut up. Other players think you are some kind of computer that can read every part perfectly and want their hands held on every detail for five hours.  The one thing that’s always true is, the caddies are making fun of you behind your back the entire day. Lol

[JESII]

To Brad's point; this thread has further confirmed that this group, as a whole, takes itself way too seriously on the golf course.


If you're having communication issues with the caddy, simply based on the employer/employee nature of the relationship, it's on you.

[archie_struthers]

 


I remember our caddie at Royal Portrush kept telling us where Rory hit it on this whole and that > A couple of the guys could really hit it far and got demoralized to the point that they asked him to refrain from any more Rory tales.  Just about fell down laughing about it over beers later that evening.


The next day I had one of the best caddies ever, when we played Porstewarte> John didn't help my golf much but was extremely pleasant and warned me of an upcoming squall coming our way in advance. I was the only one who didn't get soaking wet. He was such a good guy and as stated wasn't the best but after golf was an awesome host inside the club bar. Turns out the caddies that day were all members of the club.. we had a great time.

[Tim Martin]

Turns out the caddies that day were all members of the club.. we had a great time.

Our guys at Ballybunion were members too. The pride they had in the club really made for a special day. None were shy with a quip and had us laughing all the way around despite some dicey weather.

[Sven Nilsen]

I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards. 

The best caddies will factor the elements(wind, turf firmness) into the equation and tell you how long the shot will play. I’m always amazed that anyone will ask a caddie what club to hit on a one off round. If they say the shot will play 180 yards the smart money picks their own club.

A good caddie knows there's way more to it than what you just described.


After two holes we know how you hit, if you can flight it and pretty much what your capabilities are.


That 180 shot might be a floated 7 iron, or it might be a punched 5.  Or it might be a lay up.  And depending who you are, we're going to recommend the shot that works for you.  Only a lazy caddie is going to give you the number and hold the bag out. 


The biggest problems caddies have is getting people to play within their game. 


Sven

[Tommy Williamsen]

I've played a lot of golf in a lot of places. When I play a course for the first time I will take a caddie if they are available. I find they can tell me the nuances better than I could pick up on a first play. I didn't take a caddie at St. Andrews or County Down on my first play. Boy was that a mistake. I bet it cost me 6, 7, or 8 strokes.



When I was a member at Four Streams my buddy and I had the same daddie every week for years. He knew out games well. He also knew our tendencies and would tell us when he thought we couldn't pull of the shot we wanted to hit. It was great fun. 
         

[Rick Sides]

I was able to play in a charity event a few months ago with a caddy and he was awesome ! He started to know your tendencies and would advice you based on that . The one guy in the group was really struggling and he was patient and helped him just put balls in play rather than take silly chances

[Tim Martin]

I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards. 

The best caddies will factor the elements(wind, turf firmness) into the equation and tell you how long the shot will play. I’m always amazed that anyone will ask a caddie what club to hit on a one off round. If they say the shot will play 180 yards the smart money picks their own club.

A good caddie knows there's way more to it than what you just described.


After two holes we know how you hit, if you can flight it and pretty much what your capabilities are.


That 180 shot might be a floated 7 iron, or it might be a punched 5.  Or it might be a lay up.  And depending who you are, we're going to recommend the shot that works for you.  Only a lazy caddie is going to give you the number and hold the bag out. 


The biggest problems caddies have is getting people to play within their game. 


Sven

Sven-My example above had to do specifically with yardages for a player and caddie in a one off round and I agree that there is way more than just that as far as the interplay between the caddie and player. It’s certainly a skill to have a caddie know that a 150 shot on the ground plays 180 because of other factors. My point is that the player knows what club he needs for the yardage and I wouldn’t expect or trust a caddie after two holes to tell me what club to hit. At Bandon where you may have the same player for three days in a row you begin to know their game but I have a hard time believing that even a skilled caddie is capable or comfortable picking clubs for a player he has just for the one day. I’m a fan of caddies and in no way trying to diminish their role but I’m suspect on the point we are discussing.

[Ryan Van Culin]

I have just started caddying this year, and I'm probably a bit of an anomaly as a caddie and rater. I have caddied for the most serious guys playing in tournaments to sales reps playing one of 3 obligatory rounds a year. The best thing you can do is read your player. The worst group to caddie for is the group losing a serious match, haha.


Anyway, I'd like to think I add to a person's knowledge and appreciation of the course and it's history, but most aren't interested in that. I agree with the gentleman who said you can't club a player very often in one round. I did have a guy that I worked for 2 days in a row, and by the second day I was able to club him accurately. (we also hit roughly the same distance.)


I've also played some rounds where I've had a caddie, and I know they fill the spectrum of great to average to bad. I once had a caddie ask me on the first tee if it was alright if he listened to the US Open broadcast while we played, ha. He forgot to bring our putters to the first green.


My advice if you are using a caddie is to be frank about what you want. I've had guys who want almost no input: just give me a yardage, don't read putts or chips, to guys and gals who want Bryson levels of information. I'm good with both, but I just hate to disappoint someone by not giving them what they want.

[Sven Nilsen]

I have a hard time believing that even a skilled caddie is capable or comfortable picking clubs for a player he has just for the one day. I’m a fan of caddies and in no way trying to diminish their role but I’m suspect on the point we are discussing.

That's what we do, Tim. 

[Jeff Schley]

I didn't take a caddie at St. Andrews or County Down on my first play. Boy was that a mistake. I bet it cost me 6, 7, or 8 strokes.

     

Tommy I had the worst caddie I have had at RCD. Don't want to dogpile on the guy, but he didn't spot my ball hardly at all and gave me the wrong yardage twice on approach shots by 20 yards or so. I asked both times, "are you sure?"
Really killed the round for me as it just wasn't any fun losing that many balls, which yes were operator error but find at least a couple of them just off the fairway in the gorse.

[JMEvensky]

  I have seen some caddies that have no business on a course and mis club the golfer 30 yards. 

 Archie S, if you're seeing this, why not tee up the story with Rocky and the Japanese golfers at PVGC?

[V. Kmetz]

I have a hard time believing that even a skilled caddie is capable or comfortable picking clubs for a player he has just for the one day. I’m a fan of caddies and in no way trying to diminish their role but I’m suspect on the point we are discussing.

That's what we do, Tim.

Tim,

Again, we're talking about a regular steady veteran caddie...and if you think about it, you can understand how a caddie can quickly ascertain what the player's abilities are... within two or three holes.

• It starts with the recognition that whether you're Tiger or a slasher, a quality caddie will know how much most every shot "plays" on that course under all sorts of conditions...
• Which includes knowing the dangers involved in any particular overclub or underclub scenario...caddies know where to err.
• That will also include having watched thousands of shots from players close to you in general ability, and having a memory bank of those results...
• Then you hit a few tee shots...  (has acumen enough to know if you've hit them fairly or not) ...not only does this speak to how you hit (high low, draw, fade, clean contact, etc.,) the ball but gives an idea of your distance matrix.
• Next you hit a few fairway/approach shots, after being given a (how much it plays) distance, without clubbing comment.

By the 3rd or 4th hole, it really isn't that hard to be able to advise a player about club... however here I depart from Sven and others in that I rarely recommend a club... that to me is a matter for the player, he knows infinitely more than I do about how far his clubs go than I do... so I almost always recommend a yardage in such terms as:


..."Up to 160 without going over"
..."closest thing you've got to 165"
..."stock 100 yards..."
..."plays 145...if that puts you between two clubs, go to 150 (or down to 140)"
..."as long as it covers 150..."
..."drop anything between 135 and 150..."
..."what this sprinkler says to you, plus a club"
..."when I say '135' what club do you think of?...hit the next one up from that."

Certainly having caddied some 3000+ rounds in my life, 1/2 of which are for the same 100 familiars, I can easily advise as to a club, but the player must specifically ask me, or tell me what two clubs constitute the decision....then we have a conversation about the two clubs it could be...the slow play/caddie disdain crowd dislikes this stage, but this is the joy of human interaction in this realm, imo.


As to the OP topic:
A competent, veteran caddie ought to add something to the round and the appreciation of the course...it's really a diminishment of their job if they do not (if at all desired by the part of the player)... it's likely that he or she knows how the course plays, or what its noteworthy features are as well or better than most members-hosts. I can report that out in the field, at the fine clubs in the Met Area, the members believe this in large part or they would not go to the trouble of lining up specific caddies for their significant hosting/M-G tournaments.

[Mike_Trenham]

To Brad's point; this thread has further confirmed that this group, as a whole, takes itself way too seriously on the golf course.


If you're having communication issues with the caddy, simply based on the employer/employee nature of the relationship, it's on you.

I agree with Jim. 


Also I take a lot of caddies.  Caddies are a luxury / discretionary spending.  Its like going out for dinner, sometimes you are at a fast casual place other times white table top.  At clubs I find members who regularly take caddies really prefer more of a fast casual approach.  If you want something different you are going to need to communicate with and take care of the caddiemaster.


You should expect much different caddie experiences at a non-destination club than at a destination club.  The golfers needs dictate the type of caddies you can expect at each place. 


One day with a few GCA guys, I played Somerset Hills in the morning and Trump Bedminster in the afternoon.  Each club had very different approaches. 


At SHCC we had two young guys who attended the same boarding school in New England, one was a golfer the other was not and simply told me to ask the other guy when I had a question on how to play the course. 


In the afternoon we had one caddie in a white jump suit who was caddying full-time and was a good enough player to have had high finishes in Met Golf Championships the past season.  He put all four bags on the cart and drove, told stories the whole time and let us know how to play each hole as we arrived at the tee. 


Too very different approaches but each 100% on brand for what the clubs and members in general desire.

[Mike_Trenham]

Although not a caddy story it's similar enough.


The long-time golf professional and golf professional emeritus at Manufacturers CC was a legendary guy named Bud Lewis.  At lunch in the grill the members would have guests make a practice swing without a club for Bud and he would almost always guess within two shots the guest's handicap; in fact Bud's guess was likely more accurate reflection of their ability than some of the folks handicaps.

[Tim Martin]

I have a hard time believing that even a skilled caddie is capable or comfortable picking clubs for a player he has just for the one day. I’m a fan of caddies and in no way trying to diminish their role but I’m suspect on the point we are discussing.

That's what we do, Tim.

Tim,

Again, we're talking about a regular steady veteran caddie...and if you think about it, you can understand how a caddie can quickly ascertain what the player's abilities are... within two or three holes.

• It starts with the recognition that whether you're Tiger or a slasher, a quality caddie will know how much most every shot "plays" on that course under all sorts of conditions...
• Which includes knowing the dangers involved in any particular overclub or underclub scenario...caddies know where to err.
• That will also include having watched thousands of shots from players close to you in general ability, and having a memory bank of those results...
• Then you hit a few tee shots...  (has acumen enough to know if you've hit them fairly or not) ...not only does this speak to how you hit (high low, draw, fade, clean contact, etc.,) the ball but gives an idea of your distance matrix.
• Next you hit a few fairway/approach shots, after being given a (how much it plays) distance, without clubbing comment.

By the 3rd or 4th hole, it really isn't that hard to be able to advise a player about club... however here I depart from Sven and others in that I rarely recommend a club... that to me is a matter for the player, he knows infinitely more than I do about how far his clubs go than I do... so I almost always recommend a yardage in such terms as:


..."Up to 160 without going over"
..."closest thing you've got to 165"
..."stock 100 yards..."
..."plays 145...if that puts you between two clubs, go to 150 (or down to 140)"
..."as long as it covers 150..."
..."drop anything between 135 and 150..."
..."what this sprinkler says to you, plus a club"
..."when I say '135' what club do you think of?...hit the next one up from that."

Certainly having caddied some 3000+ rounds in my life, 1/2 of which are for the same 100 familiars, I can easily advise as to a club, but the player must specifically ask me, or tell me what two clubs constitute the decision....then we have a conversation about the two clubs it could be...the slow play/caddie disdain crowd dislikes this stage, but this is the joy of human interaction in this realm, imo.


As to the OP topic:
A competent, veteran caddie ought to add something to the round and the appreciation of the course...it's really a diminishment of their job if they do not (if at all desired by the part of the player)... it's likely that he or she knows how the course plays, or what its noteworthy features are as well or better than most members-hosts. I can report that out in the field, at the fine clubs in the Met Area, the members believe this in large part or they would not go to the trouble of lining up specific caddies for their significant hosting/M-G tournaments.

Vin-Thanks for the well reasoned and thoughtful response. I don’t want to beat the club selection issue to death and agree with your take. Finally the good caddies I’ve taken over the years far out number the bad and made for some unforgettable days and greatly enhanced the experience.

[MCirba]

I find that an excellent caddie is invaluable, particularly on a complex golf course.   


That being said, as a former caddie I can usually determine their value within the first hole or two and adjust expectations accordingly.   It's a two-way street.

[Sven Nilsen]

By the 3rd or 4th hole, it really isn't that hard to be able to advise a player about club... however here I depart from Sven and others in that I rarely recommend a club... that to me is a matter for the player, he knows infinitely more than I do about how far his clubs go than I do... so I almost always recommend a yardage in such terms as:

On one of my training loops out here a senior caddie was having a back and forth with his player on an into the wind shot.  The caddie had recommended a 6 iron, knowing that if he told the guy the yardage he'd pull something less.  When the player asked what the actual yardage was, the caddie responded "at Bandon we don't talk yardages, we talk clubs."


There's something different about the wind and how you caddie in it.  Some players get it, and have had enough experience to know how to adjust.  Most don't.  You can have a low handicap high ball hitter who can't understand why he needs to club up 4 when his high handicap low ball playing partner only needs 3 extra.

[MCirba]

Sven,


I had a similar experience at The Old Course battling on the outwards nine into a stiff wind.  I think it was the 4th hole back in 1985 when I was a younger high trajectory hitter and asked if he thought I could get there with a 5-iron.


His correct response was akin to "Aye...eventually.".


To give some idea of the force and velocity that day I hit a 3-iron head high to the front of the 11th and coming in a 6-iron over the 17th, onto the road.

[corey miller]

In the past I have had my differences with Vince in regard to caddies and some elements of the job but I recognize his most recent post on this thread is spot on.


All I really want from the caddie when I am a visitor is someone that is enjoyable to be with, gives me the yardage, and answers the occasional question as to strategy.  I suppose I am an outlier but I prefer reading my own putts (may ask a caddie twice in a round), and would much prefer to miss a putt than have a caddie show me a line that I am not going to hit anyway. 


My pet peeve, and I am sure it is really a "player problem" is that a round with a caddie should be quicker than without a caddie. 


Not the caddie's fault but it is absurd that you can often see 4 players ask two caddies 450 different questions in a four and a half hour round where they hit 400 shots combined. 

[Sven Nilsen]

Corey:


We watch guys like you turn a nice four hour round into a four and half hour round all the time just because you don't want to take a little advice.


Two putts are always quicker than three putts.  Sometimes it's not the line that's most important, it's the pace.


Data > Intuition


Sven

[John Emerson]

The time I felt I got the most value for a caddie was at Cruden Bay.  The caddy was an older gentleman and just happened to be, something like, 6 time club champion in the past.  He was no bullshit kind of guy.  He understood my game (not long - get it somewhere around the green and I’ll get it up and in) immediately and proceeded to plot me around the course and kept me out of trouble. This was great!  And, he had some phenomenal stories and broke the balls of the other caddies the entire round.  I got my money’s worth.