[Anthony Gray]

 What holes are designed so that the best play MAY be into a bunker?


 7th at TOC?


 14th at Bandon Trails?


 

[Tom_Doak]

I suppose that on some difficult par-3 holes, when playing downwind with little chance of holding the green, it would make sense to decide which of the surrounding bunkers offers the best chance to get up and down in the wind.


And maybe the same applies to an approach shot out of the rough where you won’t get enough spin to hold the green.


But I don’t think I have ever seen a hole where this is a good strategy in normal conditions, unless you are one of the best bunker players in the world.


PS Also, the 7th green at The Old Course was certainly not “designed” this way since it wasn’t really designed by anyone, and I’ll be damned if I know what bunker you want to hit into there, anyway.

[Thomas Dai]

Deliberately designed, pass, a good play under certain modern day circumstances, sure.
With modern bunker conditioning, and rakes, for a player with decent bunker skills it’s a valid option especially if the pin is close and the putting surface’s contouring warrants it.
Best that the ball rolls into the bunker though, somewhat counter productive to hit a high shot with spin that buries itself in the sand leaving the next shot from a fried egg lie.
Yee olde day conditioning and no rakes, now that would a different kettle of fish, a much more tasty one.
Atb

[A.G._Crockett]

Never.  Into a bunker is often a better miss, but it’s a miss nonetheless.




Occasionally on Tour there are situations set up by a previous error and by penal rough around the green that lead players to aim for a green side bunker because it’s their best chance of saving par.  But those are generally extreme conditions.




For amateurs, it certainly might be preferable to miss left into a bunker instead of right into the water. But you don’t have to watch much amateur bunker play to know that it was a miss, rather than a strategy.

[Steve Salmen]

The approach to the 3rd hole at Flossmoor is slightly uphill, with the green tilting severely from back right to front left.  After so many 3 putts, I committed to rather playing from the left greenside bunker than having to putt from right of the flag.  At the time, I was a more confident bunker player than putter.


To answer the question in general, if I'm approaching the green from the rough and have no chance of stopping the ball on the green, I'd rather play a short green side bunker shot to the hole if the green side rough is really penal.  A fully committed bunker shot should be easier to play than a gouge and hope.

[Michael Felton]

Never.  Into a bunker is often a better miss, but it’s a miss nonetheless.




Occasionally on Tour there are situations set up by a previous error and by penal rough around the green that lead players to aim for a green side bunker because it’s their best chance of saving par.  But those are generally extreme conditions.




For amateurs, it certainly might be preferable to miss left into a bunker instead of right into the water. But you don’t have to watch much amateur bunker play to know that it was a miss, rather than a strategy.

I have seen someone (I forget who, but it may have been TW) plugged in the back of the bunker over the back of the 12th at Augusta and deliberately move the ball forwards about 10 feet leaving it in the bunker. Anything that came out was going in the agua, so he played it to stay in the bunker.


I also have a feeling that in the US Open at Shinnecock when 7 got out of control, the scoring average from the left bunker was better than front right on the green. I may be making that up though.

[Niall C]

As a reasonable amateur player which is to say that on a good day I can just about guddle a ball round playing to high single figure handicap I have to disagree with both Tom and AG. I'd cite the 10th hole at Dornoch as evidence. I don't think that hole needs to be playing with a strong wind behind to make it very hard to hold for someone of my modest ability.


To land it just over the fronting bunker and keep the ball on the green is probably beyond me even on a good day. The question then becomes do you try and likely end up in the gunk at the back or do you play short or wide or play for a bunker ie. what is better a chip of short grass/hard surface or sand splash out the bunker ? Looked at logically I'd suspect that a lot of amateurs might come to the conclusion that the bunker might be the best play. However to counter that argument, a lot of amateurs aren't logical (including me) and eschew the percentage shot in the pursuit of glory (definitely me).


Niall   

[Erik J. Barzeski]

I have seen someone (I forget who, but it may have been TW) plugged in the back of the bunker over the back of the 12th at Augusta and deliberately move the ball forwards about 10 feet leaving it in the bunker. Anything that came out was going in the agua, so he played it to stay in the bunker.

I watched Zach Johnson putt the ball forward from the back edge of a bunker on #2 at Oakmont in the U.S. Open that Cabrera won. It was the best play he had.

But as others have said, under anything close to normal conditions, the bunker is never the smart play.

[Steve Salmen]

As a reasonable amateur player which is to say that on a good day I can just about guddle a ball round playing to high single figure handicap I have to disagree with both Tom and AG. I'd cite the 10th hole at Dornoch as evidence. I don't think that hole needs to be playing with a strong wind behind to make it very hard to hold for someone of my modest ability.


To land it just over the fronting bunker and keep the ball on the green is probably beyond me even on a good day. The question then becomes do you try and likely end up in the gunk at the back or do you play short or wide or play for a bunker ie. what is better a chip of short grass/hard surface or sand splash out the bunker ? Looked at logically I'd suspect that a lot of amateurs might come to the conclusion that the bunker might be the best play. However to counter that argument, a lot of amateurs aren't logical (including me) and eschew the percentage shot in the pursuit of glory (definitely me).


Niall   

It is a complete shame what they did to the front bunker of 10.  It used to be so much deeper, a real penalty for coming up short.  Some years back, they filled it up with sand so the consequence of being short is not nearly as bad.  I don't have a lot of negative things to say about Dornoch, but I'd like them to take a do over on that.  Rambling aside, I haven't been there since Covid.  Does anyone know if they have since made the bunker deeper?  If not, I'd rather be in that bunker than anywhere else off that green.

[V. Kmetz]

...is when the next one will end up there too, a la Shinnecock 04.


As someone said, this is mostly reserved for elite players...and/or extreme, borderline conditions.


And for me, how the hell can I be sure I can even get it into that bunker... that's the worst...playing for a bunker (for whatever insane reason) and failing to achieve even that.  That's when golf gets all lyrical and character building.

[Anthony Gray]

 18 at harbor  Town the best play may be into the bunker. Long is horrible and right is a difficult chip.

[V. Kmetz]

 18 at harbor  Town the best play may be into the bunker. Long is horrible and right is a difficult chip.

I think the concept question of the thread was on display in 2013 USO at Merion on #3, where it seemed many were cleaving into the back/left to get a controllable play back to the pin spot. Again, elite play, not me.

[Sean_A]

Never.  Into a bunker is often a better miss, but it’s a miss nonetheless.

Occasionally on Tour there are situations set up by a previous error and by penal rough around the green that lead players to aim for a green side bunker because it’s their best chance of saving par.  But those are generally extreme conditions.

For amateurs, it certainly might be preferable to miss left into a bunker instead of right into the water. But you don’t have to watch much amateur bunker play to know that it was a miss, rather than a strategy.

I have seen someone (I forget who, but it may have been TW) plugged in the back of the bunker over the back of the 12th at Augusta and deliberately move the ball forwards about 10 feet leaving it in the bunker. Anything that came out was going in the agua, so he played it to stay in the bunker.

I also have a feeling that in the US Open at Shinnecock when 7 got out of control, the scoring average from the left bunker was better than front right on the green. I may be making that up though.

That is a play to stay in a bunker, not into a bunker.

There must be the odd time when playing into a bunker is the best bet, but it must be a very dissatisfying moment.

Ciao

[Mark Kiely]

 18 at harbor  Town the best play may be into the bunker. Long is horrible and right is a difficult chip.

Best play or best miss? I don't recall seeing too many people having trouble holding that green over the years in the tournament.

[Anthony Gray]

 18 at harbor  Town the best play may be into the bunker. Long is horrible and right is a difficult chip.

Best play or best miss? I don't recall seeing too many people having trouble holding that green over the years in the tournament.

 Those are the good guys

[Thomas Dai]

A generalisation.
Many a green slopes upwards from front to back.
Many a green has a bunker both left front and right front.
When pins are cut tight it can be better for a right-hander to miss in the right hand bunker and a left hander to miss into the left hand bunker. That way a player with a decent bunker game can play their bunker shots such that the ball spins into the upslope and so stops quicker.
atb

[Michael Felton]

Never.  Into a bunker is often a better miss, but it’s a miss nonetheless.

Occasionally on Tour there are situations set up by a previous error and by penal rough around the green that lead players to aim for a green side bunker because it’s their best chance of saving par.  But those are generally extreme conditions.

For amateurs, it certainly might be preferable to miss left into a bunker instead of right into the water. But you don’t have to watch much amateur bunker play to know that it was a miss, rather than a strategy.

I have seen someone (I forget who, but it may have been TW) plugged in the back of the bunker over the back of the 12th at Augusta and deliberately move the ball forwards about 10 feet leaving it in the bunker. Anything that came out was going in the agua, so he played it to stay in the bunker.

I also have a feeling that in the US Open at Shinnecock when 7 got out of control, the scoring average from the left bunker was better than front right on the green. I may be making that up though.

That is a play to stay in a bunker, not into a bunker.

There must be the odd time when playing into a bunker is the best bet, but it must be a very dissatisfying moment.

Ciao

No doubt - perhaps if you flew that long bunker on 12 at Augusta and wound up in the bushes behind it. Then your best play may be to get it into the bunker. I think bottom line, the bunker being the play is only going to be the case after you're already in trouble. I remember reading a PGA tour player who said that when Gary Player missed a green, you hoped he'd be in the rough and not in a bunker. If he was in the rough he'd get it up and down, but if he was in the bunker you'd be worried he'd hole it.


I knew a guy who was without a doubt the best bunker player I've ever seen (and I include "on TV" in this). I watched him hole more joke bunker shots than anything. Everyone used to complain about the sand in our bunkers. Too much of it, too little, too inconsistent. He'd go in there and the ball would wind up by the hole or in it. Playing a four ball match with him one time at West Surrey, I was playing dreadfully. He wasn't. We were about 5 up through 9 and it had been nothing to do with me. Then we got to the par three 10th. My friend hit a poor shot into the front bunker and I woke up from nowhere and hit it to about 12 feet. Our opposition (who were themselves a couple under at this point) noted quite dryly that as soon as he went to sleep I woke up. I didn't get to putt. My friend had serious issues with his short range putting. He couldn't hit the hole from 6 feet away some of the time, but when he got hot he was hot. Even he would never rather be in a bunker than on the green.

[archie_struthers]

 


Think it was my last year looping at Pine Valley and I had the honor of working for Byron Nelson one afternoon. He hadn't been playing much as his health was on and off at 73 but there he was at PV. Lord Byron!


What a classy, gentle man. Obviously his record speaks for itself. 11 straight wins, hard to fathom.


So we are playing the third hole. The pin is middle back left and of course I tell him if you hit it a little deep right it will feed to the pin. If you are short the putt over a big spine that runs across the back middle of the green is almost impossible to navigate. Really fast and it breaks a lot. He chunks his tee shot a bit and yep gets that putt. Looks over at me and says this isn't too easy and proceeds to three putt.  Walks to the back of the green as we head towards four tee and tells me he would hit it back bunker rather that have that putt in a tournament.  Remember the guy won 11 in a row against Hogan et al

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it depends on pin position on any given day.
I have an example:


The 15th at Old Elm is a ~310 yard par 4 with bunkers in front and on the left and a green that is ~30 yards deep.


When the pin is at the back of the green, there is merit in hitting a hybrid or 5 iron and have 60-100 yards left with a wedge in your hand.


However, if the pin is at the front of the green, then the ideal shot is to hit driver at the flag and hopefully find the bunker in front of the green for a relatively easy shot in hopes of making birdie.


So a short par 4 is a great opportunity to play into a bunker assuming the pin is accessible.

[A.G._Crockett]

I think it depends on pin position on any given day.
I have an example:


The 15th at Old Elm is a ~310 yard par 4 with bunkers in front and on the left and a green that is ~30 yards deep.


When the pin is at the back of the green, there is merit in hitting a hybrid or 5 iron and have 60-100 yards left with a wedge in your hand.


However, if the pin is at the front of the green, then the ideal shot is to hit driver at the flag and hopefully find the bunker in front of the green for a relatively easy shot in hopes of making birdie.


So a short par 4 is a great opportunity to play into a bunker assuming the pin is accessible.

Ian,
So you're saying that if I can hit the ball around 290ish off the tee, then the front bunker is a good play?

[Jim Sherma]

The statement of best miss as opposed to best play is more reasonable. A lot does depend on the maintenance of the bunkers versus the green surrounds, but if the rough is either really deep and/or spotty I'd likely prefer the bunker shot. This is more of a maintenance thing than an architecture thing however. 


The only time I'll intentionally play towards a bunker is if it is a recovery shot that I don't think will be able to hold the green and deem the bunker as a better miss than running something through the green into a worse spot.

[Sven Nilsen]

 14th at Bandon Trails?

The best play on the 14th at Trails is never into a bunker.


Off the tee -


There are bunkers on the right side of the fairway that are a total no go zone.  You can have anywhere from a 30 to 70 yard shot with the worst possible angle into the green.  Don't hit it over there.


The two bunkers on the left side of the hole are a bit more benign, but I wouldn't want to be in either one.  The short one is certainly a better option than the trees to the left of it, but there is plenty of fairway to the right to make it never an option.  The one closer to the green gives people fits as the green mostly runs away on this angle, and is still very narrow.  Sometimes, from this bunker, the best option is putter.  There's no reason to aim at this bunker when the swale just to the right of it (and left of the green) presents a much better option.


On the approach -


The bunkers on the right side of the green are set well below the surface and you can often get a downhill lie (as the balls tend to collect towards the back edge of these bunkers).  Not fun, and not a shot anyone wants to play for their third.  You'd much rather miss left on the grass and have a putter in your hand.  The miss here is always left.

Sven

[Paul Jones]

Seminole Par 3 - I think it is hole 8, depending on where the flag is, the caddie will tell you to hit it in the bunker to make sure you stay below the hole.  If you are long or pin high left or right, it is a very difficult 2 putt or up and down.

[Ian Mackenzie]

I think it depends on pin position on any given day.
I have an example:


The 15th at Old Elm is a ~310 yard par 4 with bunkers in front and on the left and a green that is ~30 yards deep.


When the pin is at the back of the green, there is merit in hitting a hybrid or 5 iron and have 60-100 yards left with a wedge in your hand.


However, if the pin is at the front of the green, then the ideal shot is to hit driver at the flag and hopefully find the bunker in front of the green for a relatively easy shot in hopes of making birdie.


So a short par 4 is a great opportunity to play into a bunker assuming the pin is accessible.

Ian,
So you're saying that if I can hit the ball around 290ish off the tee, then the front bunker is a good play?

Hole plays every so slightly downhill on some of the firmest fairways in the Midwest and the ball rolls forever.
I'm 59 and I can get there. But, if you cannot, then that would NOT be the "best play" for you.


Perhaps take your 7 wood and hit it twice then...


I believe the thread asked for "when the BEST play is into a bunker" and does not contemplate any physical or mental limitations...

[Garland Bayley]

I think it depends on pin position on any given day.
I have an example:
...

I too have an example.

I followed Michelle Wie part of the day at the US Open at Pumpkin Ridge. One of the par 5s is a two tier green angled with the back to the right and a bunker fronting that part of the green. The front is the upper tier, and the back is the lower tier. The pin was set just below the ridge in the green making it impossible to putt it close from the upper tier. Michelle ran her second onto the front tier, and as expected three putted from there. Had she run her second into the bunker fronting the back tier, it would been a fairly simple up and down for birdie.

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