A 5 Day Schedule for Private Clubs?

[Tim Martin]

I like the idea of fractional membership but your math is challenged Rick.


40 weeks means March 1 through Thanksgiving…in the Philly area, almost half that time is extremely questionable weather. Could you get 120 people to sign up to play #67 (or whatever) for $200 on March 22 with no refund option?


More importantly, those clubs don’t really need this model. The second tier clubs that want to compete could implement something like this and find the extra cash to provide an experience closer to the top tier.

We play in Connecticut into December just about every year. The front end is the question but it’s rare that pins are not in by April 1st. Every day will not be perfect but the option usually presents itself nonetheless.

But Tim, would you put down $200 (non-refundable) to lock in a tee time at the best course near you on December 4th? You'd probably like to wait until the 1st or 2nd...and if it's a Tuesday, that time of year you're really limiting your market.


I was simply suggesting to Rick that, while his $1.4M number might get some attention, in reality the top line would be somewhat less than that.

Jim-If I really wanted to play somewhere that I haven’t played which doesn’t exist in or around Hartford I wouldn’t be scared off by the $200 on December 4th. When I look at some of the new age golf societies the pricing for the day usually starts at around $400 and goes up from there to $700 or $800 depending on the venue. I would think there might be an opportunity down the line to play, with a gracious pro taking into consideration the non refundable fee. Finally I completely understand what you are saying and that not everyone would be willing to take the chance.

[Kalen Braley]

Tax implications aside, and yes I understand its a big part of the reason why it is the way it is.

But I think there is certainly some type of inherited institutional bias going on too.  In the UK and Australia where most privates are basically open to outside play, I can't even count the number of comments I've read over the years from those members who love their model because it allows them to be a member where they still get all the coveted Thurs-Sunday tee times, and most important all for a tiny fraction of per round cost compared to the US.

IIRC,  there are at least 20 courses in the Golf Mag top 100 list from those countries, and I'm guessing most of them are open.

[JESII]

Tim,


My only real point is that Rick was proposing $1.4M to the top line. That's a nice number but it's entirely dependent on selling 40 days of 35 foursomes per day at $1,000 gross to the club. Wouldn't the case be less compelling if the math turned out to be $500K? I know most anyone on here would risk $200 to play a great course once. He's looking for 5,600 people to do it per year at a single course. The very few that could draw that don't need it.

[Tim Martin]

Tim,

The very few that could draw that don't need it.

+1

[Rick Sides]

My thought is that where I live in New Jersey people pay 100 bucks for public courses that are maybe not even in top 50 in the state. I’m aware courses in the top echelon don’t need to do this and it would take away the mystic and privilege of being part of an elite club. I do think some clubs could make a boatload of money if people would easily fork out several hundred bucks for high end publics like Sawgrass, there would be loads of people lined up to pay 200 ish bucks to get on a super nice private course and it would allow golfers a chance to experience great clubs like they do in Europe. Again not  the perfect plan for all clubs but it might be worth a thought

[Tim_Weiman]

Tax implications aside, and yes I understand its a big part of the reason why it is the way it is.

But I think there is certainly some type of inherited institutional bias going on too.  In the UK and Australia where most privates are basically open to outside play, I can't even count the number of comments I've read over the years from those members who love their model because it allows them to be a member where they still get all the coveted Thurs-Sunday tee times, and most important all for a tiny fraction of per round cost compared to the US.

IIRC,  there are at least 20 courses in the Golf Mag top 100 list from those countries, and I'm guessing most of them are open.

Kalen,


I grew up in Westchester County, New York where private clubs were private and had no outside play. But, I was impressed by Ballybunion when I first went there in the late 1980s. The local members had no interest in morning play, so things worked great having foreigners play and cover most, if not all, the cost of running the club.


They would then have the course for the afternoon and probably spend more for beer after playing than the cost of membership. Those were good old days.

[Sean_A]

In many ways this is a sad and disappointing thread. Are folks that worried about elitism, 100% access and keeping the gates closed to their precious golf clubs?

Ciao

[JESII]

If you’re referring to my comments, Sean, your mistaking them for me being in a decision making position at a top 100 club with the reality of me simply stating an opinion on Rick’s suggested business model.

[Rick Sides]

Sean A ,
I will say to your point , I was talking to a friend who is a head pro/ director of golf at a private club for many years and he told me today it’s shocking that several clubs in his state , not even really elite status , won’t let him play there . You would think you would want to work with your colleagues!

[Steve Lapper]

Sean A ,
I will say to your point , I was talking to a friend who is a head pro/ director of golf at a private club for many years and he told me today it’s shocking that several clubs in his state , not even really elite status , won’t let him play there . You would think you would want to work with your colleagues!

Rick,


   I truly doubt this. I know the NJ golf scene as well as anyone and other than the (understandable) member-invite policy at PV, a member in-good-standing head pro/director of golf would be welcome to a round (at the right time) ANYWHERE else.


  He would simply call the desired pro and make a polite request, provided the ask would be for an appropriate and available time. The host's membership at every desirable club I know in the state (save for PV) wouldn't have any problem with that.

[Sean_A]

Sean A ,
I will say to your point , I was talking to a friend who is a head pro/ director of golf at a private club for many years and he told me today it’s shocking that several clubs in his state , not even really elite status , won’t let him play there . You would think you would want to work with your colleagues!

I fully take on board tax issues and private property rights etc. But I keep saying private clubs generally need to be more impactful in their local communities. The time could come when those clubs may need the support of these communities. To that end I would be far more interested in clubs opening up a bit to non member locals rather than top 100 chaser types. We do see this kind of thing with clubs hosting local school home matches etc. Everything can't be about immediate profits...the long term benefits may be far more rewarding and possibly save the future of some clubs.

Ciao

[John Kavanaugh]

Sean A ,
I will say to your point , I was talking to a friend who is a head pro/ director of golf at a private club for many years and he told me today it’s shocking that several clubs in his state , not even really elite status , won’t let him play there . You would think you would want to work with your colleagues!

Maybe he is bored with the access conversations. By saying even he can’t play he hopes you will stop asking him if you can.

[Rick Sides]

Steve,
I was shocked to hear it.  He even said some courses charge him guest fees.

[John Kavanaugh]

Steve,
I was shocked to hear it.  He even said some courses charge him guest fees.

Maybe he is a tattletale little bitch that isn’t well respected in his section.

[archie_struthers]

 


The problem with the “5 day” deal would be that the clubs that could make the most money 💵 probably don’t need it !


They have the type of membership that typically would eschew outside play . In my experience Oakmont is one of the few elite courses that welcomes it….but I’m not speaking from a lot of experience even there …certainly Pine Valley Merion et al in our area don’t have a desire to promote more play on

[John Kavanaugh]

No true professional bad mouths his colleagues to civilians. As an engineer I could have my license suspended for a first offense.

[John Kavanaugh]

No true professional bad mouths his colleagues to civilians. As an engineer I could have my license suspended for a first offense.

My apologies to Tom Doak. 

[Stewart Abramson]

The problem with the “5 day” deal would be that the clubs that could make the most money 💵 probably don’t need it !

They have the type of membership that typically would eschew outside play .

I think that gets to the heart of Sean's point. In GB&I there are very few clubs with that "type of membership". Most GB&I clubs welcome visitors and actually enjoy showing off their courses to strangers. In the U.S. "that type of membership" is the norm. Just different cultures.

[John Kavanaugh]

Prairie Dunes is the real deal when it comes to GB&I models. Of course they are motivated to keep local dues inexpensive. It works.

[Will Lozier]

Btw: It’s immoral to discriminate based on price.

Even against random scallywags?!

[Anthony Gray]

 The problem may be golf etiquette. Some private courses don’t want the risk of having morons disrespect their course. In Europe there are less issues with this I assume.


 

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Some thoughts:


Has anyone mentioned charity or corporate outings? My former club - Commonwealth- owned by a corporation- in suburban Philadelphia, had many outings on Mondays.


First Tier clubs- Merion, etc- had very few Monday outings and don't need the income. 

When LuLu's clubhouse had a fire, they had a " Membership For a Day"  program limited to 7 plays. Now. with the new clubhouse, I understand there's a waiting list.

The club culture in the USA is far different than in GB&I. Perhaps a lower tier club would open once in a while for public play but not 2 days per week or have weekend times ( Friday-Sunday) for members only and allow public play on some Tuesdays.

[jeffwarne]

99% of members of private clubs already pay over $200 a round for access to their own course.

Ding!
We have a winner.

[Ronald Montesano]

B.Ross point 11: Private clubs are ripe with cronyism and perhaps corruption, much like the rest of our society.

I agree that some are ripe with cronyism; I also suspect that they are rife with cronyism. As goes language, so goes society.

[SL_Solow]

Putting aside historical reasons for these policies, isn't the current rationale economic?  Members of private clubs are willing to pay a premium to have exclusive access to their property.  Semi-private courses dilute exclusivity in return for lower fees as do some "private" clubs that are owned by third parties.  Most of those have larger memberships which reduce ease of access in return for lower fees.  Public fees courses generally are less expensive to use but access is not guaranteed nor are other amenities.  Resorts have their own model.  The existence of "privates" reflect an economic choice by their members.