A 5 Day Schedule for Private Clubs?

[Rob Marshall]

99% of members of private clubs already pay over $200 a round for access to their own course.

Another bit of nonsense from JK.

It costs around $20,000 to play 100 rounds per year at any top 100 private club. 99% of members of private top 100 clubs do not play 100 rounds at that club each year. Not nonsense.

I agree. I'm at an middle tier club, play 70 rounds a year and I'm well over $100

[Paul Jones]

I remember Brad Klein (I think it was him) mention that Private Clubs in the US cannot have too much outside play and keep tax breaks (or Non Profit status) or something like that...  in other words, US tax system plays a part in clubs not advertising and allow outside play while staying private.

[Garland Bayley]

99% of members of private clubs already pay over $200 a round for access to their own course.

Another bit of nonsense from JK.

It costs around $20,000 to play 100 rounds per year at any top 100 private club. 99% of members of private top 100 clubs do not play 100 rounds at that club each year. Not nonsense.

Why don't you just say "oops, I meant top 100 clubs" instead of pretending my reaction was false?

[John Kavanaugh]

Why don't you read the OP? This is another thread about money and top 100 clubs. Rick could give a shit about playing where you play.

[Ted Sirbaugh]

I remember Brad Klein (I think it was him) mention that Private Clubs in the US cannot have too much outside play and keep tax breaks (or Non Profit status) or something like that...  in other words, US tax system plays a part in clubs not advertising and allow outside play while staying private.

Correct - any club that has 501(c)(7) status. From the IRS website: "no more than 15 percent of gross receipts may be derived from nonmember use of club facilities and services."

[Steve Lapper]

I remember Brad Klein (I think it was him) mention that Private Clubs in the US cannot have too much outside play and keep tax breaks (or Non Profit status) or something like that...  in other words, US tax system plays a part in clubs not advertising and allow outside play while staying private.

Most clubs that are chartered as Not-for-Profit earn a tax exemption on member income. They remain tax susceptible for non-member income (although may be partially offset by certain categories of losses) and limitations of 15%. They do remain subject to property taxes and some sales taxes (vary from state-to-state).


Many clubs, especially older-prestigious ones, filed for social club tax exemption (local and state) status and are prohibited (ostensibly) from conducting non-club business on their premises. This is status that regularly gets challenged by disenchanted ex-employees and disenfranchised (ex) members.

[John Kavanaugh]

I guess we need a court case to determine that "society" play is not member play.

[Garland Bayley]

Why don't you read the OP? This is another thread about money and top 100 clubs. Rick could give a shit about playing where you play.

Still can't admit a mistake, can you. You didn't refer to the top 100 with a qualification like "these", but instead opened it up to private clubs in general.

Besides, the discussion had already turned some with Sully saying top 100s didn’t need the money, but it might work for 2nd tier clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

I'll try to include a meme next time so you aren't confused.

[Bill Seitz]

 They do remain subject to property taxes and some sales taxes (varied from state-to-state.

In general, most states offer a sales tax exemption some, but not all nonprofits, and that's only on purchases of goods used in furtherance of the nonprofit's objectives.  It may as simple as providing evidence of one's 501(c)(3) status, but many states (like Illinois) require an application and approval process in which it must be shown that the nonprofit is organized for religious, educational, or charitable reasons.  So golf clubs aren't going to cut it.  And even those organizations that do qualify are obligated to collect and remit tax on sales of taxable property and services (think of an educational institution that also sells books).  Point being, just because a club is organized as not for profit, you're still paying tax on that polo in the pro-shop.

[John Kavanaugh]

99% of members of private clubs already pay over $200 a round for access to their own course.

Another bit of nonsense from JK.

It costs around $20,000 to play 100 rounds per year at any top 100 private club. 99% of members of private top 100 clubs do not play 100 rounds at that club each year. Not nonsense.

I agree. I'm at an middle tier club, play 70 rounds a year and I'm well over $100

I prefer to take the total amount that my account is charged each year and divide that by the number of rounds. That is how I arrived at my $20,000 per year cost.


The last three days I have gone to the range, smoked a cigar and had lunch and alcohol, not necessarily in that order. That needs to be included in the cost of my next round.

[Tim Martin]

You just need to be patient and wait for the Boomers like me to die off. The thought of renting my home out on VRBO makes me physically ill.

https://youtu.be/Yfc5mmzcT7w

[Jeff Schley]

There is unaccompanied play which is pretty common typically T-Th via pros connections. This is expanding that idea in a sustainable way. Not against it.
Also the cost per round is high for only 1 golfer, but you should consider including families, your dues pay for you, spouse and children 23 or under typically. Some families are getting great value. I know of one family that all golf (5 of them) and although it is in the Midwest so not open at least 4 months of the year, they easily get 75 rounds each a year. However, just one bill as there is one member. Of course this is a dream scenario for most and best case, many members are the only or maybe their spouse plays 1x a week if they are lucky.

[Tim Martin]

I like the idea of fractional membership but your math is challenged Rick.


40 weeks means March 1 through Thanksgiving…in the Philly area, almost half that time is extremely questionable weather. Could you get 120 people to sign up to play #67 (or whatever) for $200 on March 22 with no refund option?


More importantly, those clubs don’t really need this model. The second tier clubs that want to compete could implement something like this and find the extra cash to provide an experience closer to the top tier.

We play in Connecticut into December just about every year. The front end is the question but it’s rare that pins are not in by April 1st. Every day will not be perfect but the option usually presents itself nonetheless.

[Jason Thurman]

My unpretentious home club has relatively affordable dues, a full membership, a waitlist, and well-funded capital and operating accounts. Our members like to play golf. We're already open 6.5 days a week, only closing on Monday mornings. We damn sure wouldn't open the course up to non-member play on Tuesdays.



Blanket rules for private clubs don't make any sense. There are plenty of places that follow a really different model than ours and that offer more outside play. That's Pasatiempo's schtick isn't it? Used to be anyways... I recall that they offer public tee times at certain times of day but protect other windows for members only. That would be an easier sell for me than opening up to non-members for an entire day.


But really, as a member... my preference is to play at a club with fellow members, and not to share things with fee-payers. My experience as a member is improved by the fact that I have 7-day-a-week access to my club and I'm surrounded by familiar faces when I visit.

[Mike_Trenham]

To protect your private club status you can not have full open reciprocal rights.  If your membership is not vetting the individuals who have access to the property then you may have a real challenge if you choose to deny a person membership.

[Carl Nichols]

There is unaccompanied play which is pretty common typically T-Th via pros connections. This is expanding that idea in a sustainable way. Not against it.
Also the cost per round is high for only 1 golfer, but you should consider including families, your dues pay for you, spouse and children 23 or under typically. Some families are getting great value. I know of one family that all golf (5 of them) and although it is in the Midwest so not open at least 4 months of the year, they easily get 75 rounds each a year. However, just one bill as there is one member. Of course this is a dream scenario for most and best case, many members are the only or maybe their spouse plays 1x a week if they are lucky.

Unless Dove bars cost $5 before tax and service charge!   

[Buck Wolter]

Btw: It’s immoral to discriminate based on price.

Charging poorer people less is immoral?

[Jerry Rossi]

My thought was a lot of members would resign. I belong to a smaller club and this wouldn't really help a lot because its not a destination club.  1.4 million could be a very low estimate. I wondered if this model could work for very sought after places to play?

I think your thought here is correct...I would 100% resign at my club if we did this.  We limit unaccompanied guest play as is, and when it is allowed it costs them more than $200 and allows the club's members a chance to use our generosity to get our members access to other desirable clubs (because those are generally the only places we allow unaccompanied guests from).  That's how I got on at Oakland Hills South a few years ago.


So yeah, the idea that I'd lose my ability to play on Tuesday's would be a deal breaker...plus I'd argue whatever is gained on the balance sheet (and I'm not sure it would be a financial gain) would be lost in the reputational hit the club would suffer by losing exclusivity which drives the membership, downstroke, dues and desire for unaccompanied play.

[Dan Grossman]

99% of members of private clubs already pay over $200 a round for access to their own course.

Another bit of nonsense from JK.

It costs around $20,000 to play 100 rounds per year at any top 100 private club. 99% of members of private top 100 clubs do not play 100 rounds at that club each year. Not nonsense.

Why don't you just say "oops, I meant top 100 clubs" instead of pretending my reaction was false?

It doesn't need to be a Top 100 club for it to cost more than $200 / round.  I'm well north of that...

[Tommy Williamsen]

I can't think of any club where I was a member where the membership would like it. For two of the clubs it was a second club and closed on Tuesday so that members could play every day, depending on which club they played on Mondays and Tuesday. Unaccompanied play where I am a member is now $375 plus mandatory caddie.

[B.Ross]

I’d say the following things are all true

• COVID hurt outing and f&B revenues at clubs, some more than others in the US depending on region. As a result, clubs have sought out other ways to max out non-member revenue.
• Reciprocity varies region to region and season to season throughout the US
• In the past 5 years, the number of access brokering platforms has really expanded and there’s a lot of variety to them. Some are by the book in that they get Monday access through the HP / BOD, others are businesses built on the generosity of club members who choose to host. There are numerous other threads on this board and other boards about these groups. Typically, the more cost prohibitive a group is to join, the more legit their avenue of access is.
• A club can restrict how many times you bring the same guest, but it cannot restrict who that guest is or how you met that guest.
• A number of these access platforms benefited immeasurably from the COVID golf boom which brought new people to the game, new members to clubs, increased initiations or dues and waitlists. In fact COVID probably caused new ones to sprout up and others to thrive when they wouldn’t have prior.
• Because of mainly points 1 & 6, many clubs have eased up on the type of guest restrictions referred to in point 4 (number of times the same guest can play in year or month)
• Point number 6 arguably devalues your membership, unless that increased guest revenue that’s coming from outside the club by-laws is keeping your dues flat or stopping an assessment from occurring
• If you’re just a regular member of your club and not on a board or committee, good luck in finding out if point number 7 is true or not.
• The more embedded a HP or golf director is at their club, the more likely they are to look the other way since it’ll benefit them in pro shop sales at the bare minimum.
• The more a member “kisses the ring” of their golf shop, the more the rules get bent for them with these things.
• Private clubs are ripe with cronyism and perhaps corruption, much like the rest of our society.
• Unlike other aspects of society, it doesn’t benefit a regular member to blow the whistle on such activity. In fact, they’re more likely to be targeted for retribution. To quote Omar Little “you come at the king, you best not miss.”

[JESII]

I like the idea of fractional membership but your math is challenged Rick.


40 weeks means March 1 through Thanksgiving…in the Philly area, almost half that time is extremely questionable weather. Could you get 120 people to sign up to play #67 (or whatever) for $200 on March 22 with no refund option?


More importantly, those clubs don’t really need this model. The second tier clubs that want to compete could implement something like this and find the extra cash to provide an experience closer to the top tier.

We play in Connecticut into December just about every year. The front end is the question but it’s rare that pins are not in by April 1st. Every day will not be perfect but the option usually presents itself nonetheless.

But Tim, would you put down $200 (non-refundable) to lock in a tee time at the best course near you on December 4th? You'd probably like to wait until the 1st or 2nd...and if it's a Tuesday, that time of year you're really limiting your market.


I was simply suggesting to Rick that, while his $1.4M number might get some attention, in reality the top line would be somewhat less than that. 

[Mark Molyneux]

Do this 40 weeks out of the year which allows time for tournaments, weather, etc. ( Annual total 1.4 million)

Rick! I like the way you think!


This wouldn't work for every club and individual clubs might need to adjust the process but so many private clubs are struggling, they might just want to institute such a program. Similar programs exist already usually with some minimum buy-in to gain such assess. I guess the main question for naysayers would be, "If it works across the pond, why wouldn't it work here?"


I already have a discount pass that allows me access to a specified dozen private clubs in 2022.


There's some gray area between absolutely closed private clubs (more power to them) and clubs that open up on Mondays for outings. There are places, where I can call with a group of 8 or 16 and call it an "outing" to gain access.

[John Kavanaugh]

Btw: It’s immoral to discriminate based on price.

Charging poorer people less is immoral?

It’s immoral that people are denied access because their chosen profession isn’t properly rewarded in a corrupt economic model.