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Tommy Williamsen

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Good and poor routings
« on: January 11, 2022, 12:11:21 PM »
So, what determines good vs poor routings? Merion has a crossover on both sides of the road. At Rustic Canyon you have to walk past ten and eleven to get from seventeen to eighteen. The walks from eight to nine, nine to ten, and sixteen to seventeen at Pine Tree are confusing and it is on a flat piece of ground. Do crossovers detract from the flow of a course? We all have played courses that required signs to tell us where the next hole is. Dormie has that. There is even a sign that reads “This ain’t 7.”

Inverness, though on a small piece of property, has bunches of parallel holes. But Ross used the natural terrain to make the holes different. Many new courses require cart rides between holes. We didn’t see it on TV but Kapalua fits that. But how else could you route that difficult terrain?
On hilly sites how do you keep the flow of a course without sacrificing good holes?
Does distance between green and tee decide whether a routing is good or poor?


Finding a routing that uses the best landforms of the property is essential I would think. I played little known Elyria CC this past fall. The land is relatively flat but there are some wonderful hillocks and terraces and creeks that Flynn used to make the course interesting, He did it without sacrificing quality on other holes. He also used the dramatic land at The Cascades brilliantly. It has a less than ideal 5,5,3 finish but what else could he have done? C&C used the best landforms at Sand Hills as well as any modern course out there. After playing Ballyneal I thought that TD could not have picked a better routing.

Is it easier to route from a topographical map or on the ground? There are stories of both Bill Coore and Pete Dye routing with their feet. Bill Coore spent three weeks walking the 750 acres of Hidden Creek visualizing a routing.

What decides that a course is routed well of poorly?
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 01:25:03 PM »
There’s so many questions in there, it’s almost impossible to start to answer!


What’s sure is different architects put slightly different priorities on certain decisions or compromises.


For instance, one architect may include a crossover to enable him to route a return hole along a coast in a different direction to a previous one… whereas another architect might think that the rather awkward crossover is not worth the reward of having those holes in different directions.


One of a million nuances / examples.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #2 on: January 11, 2022, 01:53:01 PM »
"Routing the Golf Course" by Forrest Richardson  :D   Anyone really interested in this topic, buy the book.


I have never completed a brand new 18 hole course from scratch but I have worked with a half dozen different owners and done multiple routings for each possible project.  None went ahead at this point for all kinds of reasons.  What I will say quite strongly is NO golfer should criticize a routing without having a understanding of the myriad of issues, challenges, compromises, constraints, restrictions,..., that are often (almost always encountered) when building a golf course.  I just shake my head when I am with a rater or just another golfer and they start complaining about the routing.  Sure they are entitled to complain but if they understood what most architects have to go through to get a course routed and built they may be a bit more empathetic.  It doesn't give the architect a free pass for a "bad" routing but sometimes a compromise and a course built is better than no course at all. 


I am glad Mackenzie didn't throw up his hands and walk away when he realized he ran out of land for #18 at Cypress Point.  Sometimes even the greatest of all golf courses have had to compromise. 
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 02:21:40 PM by Mark_Fine »

Dan_Callahan

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #3 on: January 11, 2022, 02:23:58 PM »
Often when I play a course on a tricky site ... whether it is hills and rocks or environmental restrictions and housing ... I am struck with how difficult it must have been to route. How to get a golfer from point A to point B in an interesting, challenging way while navigating around numerous potential road blocks.


When I saw St. Patrick's in an early stage of development, it opened my eyes to a completely different routing challenge: How to pick 18 holes on a site with an almost infinite number of options. In some ways, what the Renaissance team did there is even more impressive than a design on a "difficult" site. To be able to route the course through those dunes ... committing to it and not being distracted by the temptation of the next shiny object that seems to appear over every ridge ... is a unique talent.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 02:27:30 PM by Dan_Callahan »

Tony Dear

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2022, 02:25:35 PM »


What decides that a course is routed well of poorly?


For me, a poor routing is far more conspicuous than a good one - one of those instances where if something is done well you don't really notice it. You're only aware of it when it's done poorly.
If, during the course of a round, I think to myself "I wish this hole went that way" or "Why is the green there and not over there?" then I'll probably think it could be better, but will concede there was probably a good reason for it.
I'm reading Forrest Richardson's book on routing. To say it's thorough would be something of an understatement. The chapter on the 'Rules of Routing' has subheadings on: Financial Rules, Entitlement Rules, Given Conditions, Beginning, Irrigation, Budget, Aesthetics, Length & Par, Pace & Flow, Orientation, Variation, Topography, Safety, the Future.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 04:14:36 PM by Tony Dear »
Tony

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2022, 02:49:19 PM »
Often when I play a course on a tricky site ... whether it is hills and rocks or environmental restrictions and housing ... I am struck with how difficult it must have been to route. How to get a golfer from point A to point B in an interesting, challenging way while navigating around numerous potential road blocks.


When I saw St. Patrick's in an early stage of development, it opened my eyes to a completely different routing challenge: How to pick 18 holes on a site with an almost infinite number of options. In some ways, what the Renaissance team did there is even more impressive than a design on a "difficult" site. To be able to route the course through those dunes ... committing to it and not being distracted by the temptation of the next shiny object that seems to appear over every ridge ... is a unique talent.


Dan,


Whilst St. Patricks had a lot of potential golf holes, it will still have had slightly less routing options than some of these sites where TD and C&C have had 2,000 acres to choose from.


The St. Pats site had four distinct sections: The dunesy / blowout section (1,2,3,7,8), the extension of the valley by the sea (4,5,6). The big hill in the middle (15,16) and the more inland part on the other side of the hill (10,11,12). I’m not sure what parts of the jigsaw came where for Tom; or what the Eureka moment was that made things finally click… but certain areas had certain requirements (e.g. 1 green site was a given and 2 had to follow 1. After that the next question was whether you headed back down 7 or whether you headed over the ridge where 3 currently resides)… I think he unlocked a top-notch routing but I bet it wasn’t his hardest routing job he’s had…


What is for sure is that routing 18 holes on a tight 140 acre site with constraints is a different challenge to doing it on a 1,000 acre site of great undulations. That latter one is what you are getting at - trying to pick the best green sites and flow from such a vast landscape…. Often the first challenge on the 140 acre site is to eradicate any awkward holes or contrived moments. That in itself is a win. Sometimes it takes an age just to get something that works without having to blow up the landscape.


P.S. St. Pats was around 300 acres I think.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 02:52:48 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

mike_malone

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2022, 03:22:21 PM »
The Philly Flynn Six have nearly the same land which is the rolling hills west of Philadelphia. I scratch my head trying to find the major similarities between the routings. I see little. They are a great example of a master golf course router at work.
AKA Mayday

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2022, 03:36:50 PM »
Questions:  How is the routing different than the flow of the course?  Can you have a good routing with bad flow?

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2022, 03:37:36 PM »
What is for sure is that routing 18 holes on a tight 140 acre site with constraints is a different challenge to doing it on a 1,000 acre site of great undulations. That latter one is what you are getting at - trying to pick the best green sites and flow from such a vast landscape.
Yes, this is exactly what I meant, but you said it much better than I did.

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2022, 03:43:19 PM »
Tommy,


Here is my quick definition....it has 18 good holes.  Good routings also turn a collection of good holes into a more satisfying golf round with additional qualities like generally accepted/favorable/playable for all par, and wind, length and design variety, sequence/rhythm, short walks/connections, good circulation, and adequate safety.


I believe routing is best done on a combo of paper and site walks.  Yes, Cand C supposedly spent X amount of time walking, but Tom Doak also got the Sebonak routing about 90% right on paper before ever seeing the site.  There are some things you can figure out better on a topo map first.


My typical process was to see the site on a general walk, go back and route several options on paper, and then go back to the site to see specific things, to confirm or decide to change once you see the actual feature locations in the field.



« Last Edit: January 11, 2022, 03:46:15 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tommy Williamsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2022, 03:44:03 PM »
I played two courses this year in Charlottesville, VA: Birdwood and Keswick. Both are new routings over an existing course. I hadn't played Birdwood but the routing by DL3 felt natural. I have no idea what was there previously but the new one works well. Routing that course must have been difficult because  it would seem natural to me to use most of the old corridors. I have played Full Cry at Keswick before and after. The after looks so natural I couldn't figure out where the old routing was.
Where there is no love, put love; there you will find love.
St. John of the Cross

"Deep within your soul-space is a magnificent cathedral where you are sweet beyond telling." Rumi

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2022, 03:48:49 PM »
Tommy,


Sometimes that happens.  When cutting through formerly straight, solid tree lines at angles, it sort of gets the course back to a more scattered tree planting parkland style.  I have seen it happen that way many times.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Ian Andrew

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #12 on: January 11, 2022, 07:59:26 PM »
A course that stays on a coastline for one long run rather than figuring out how to come to the coast and how to get away multiple times. Anticipation is part of the joy of architecture. It's like going to burlesque show and the dancer begins completely naked. The tease is actually the best part of the show.

With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Sean_A

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2022, 09:34:12 PM »
I am definitely in the camp of staying away from routing comments unless you are in the know about the project. There could be many reasons for seemingly odd routing decisions which may have been the best choices. From PoV, the routing is really about the walk and flow of the design. There may be the odd time I wonder why something done when it seems like there was a no brainer other option sitting there. Usually though, I simply think I either like or dislike something and ignore the routing because I rarely know enough about the routing decisions.

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

mike_beene

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2022, 11:00:28 PM »
For a club I like crossovers. You see more people and end up getting to know people playing with friends. Also, it seems tight property end up with a few odd fits. (3 and 6 at Merion; the dead end 13th at Colonial; St Louis CC par 3 on back nine).
Setting aside severe property routings , the one that I like least is Spyglass.The walk up 7 into the trees is a downer.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2022, 12:05:28 AM »
Questions:  How is the routing different than the flow of the course?  Can you have a good routing with bad flow?


I don't think it is a good routing if it has bad flow.
I agree with Jeff, the best way to tell a good routing is if there are no bad holes.
Seeing a bad hole means it's a flawed routing.
Artificially making a hole better is one way to overcome a bad routing - lots do this, maybe even most.
This is what makes a great routing so valuable, to use Tom, he worked very hard to make all the holes as natural as possible using the land, or disturbing it as little as possible or minimally.
Whether using a map, or a compass, or your nose, it doesn't matter how one gets there, just that you get there - the routing changes during construction when you make an improvement.
And I believe that if anyone can find a problem with a single hole, then they can complain about the routing.
Routing is equal to or inseparable from the design of the whole course
The 16th at Cypress point tends to say that it is a great routing.
Peace
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

Adrian_Stiff

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2022, 04:39:42 AM »
I think you do get 80/90% of it right on a piece of paper but the main time is spent sorting that 10/20% solution to get the best and sometimes that means sacrifice of the 80/90 you thought you sorted.


Most routings break a few rules (if there are any). I suppose the best routings get near the common things that we accept today.


As mentioned it is an abundance of factors and what one thinks is a best routing another may think not. Of jobs I lost on both occasions to the same architect his routing was almost identical to mine. A job I won against another mine was very different.


Once again for us bottom feeders, we don't often get the best land and often the main problem is fitting holes in to maximise length versus safety constraits.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Kyle Harris

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2022, 06:35:40 AM »
Reading through the replies I'm a bit shocked I haven't really read the idea that we accept/suspend disbelief for the golf architect differently based on whether we traverse the property with ball in play or ball in hand/pocket.

I know of plenty of bad holes on great routings and I know of plenty of great holes on bad routings.

The most important part of "feeling" golf architecture is what the architect is asking you to do from the green to the next tee.

Having never played it, I actually don't know if the 15th at Cypress Point is a good hole or not. How does it compare to any other short hole of similar length when removing location from consideration. Surely there are better similar length holes on worse routings.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 06:58:19 AM by Kyle Harris »
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2022, 08:00:09 AM »
Kyle,
There are NO better similar length holes or holes period that I have ever played anywhere then the 15th at CP.  One a scale of 1-10 it is off the scale. 


Mike N,
Are use excusing 18 at CP?

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2022, 11:12:25 AM »
I'll still go with my 18 good holes theory.  Yes, occasionally you are forced into one, say, a blind hole that you might not like, but in most cases, even that can be fixed in feature design, either by massive earthmoving, or a subtle way finding device like a small saddle in the fw, etc.   In the end, a good routing has almost every hole being at least good, with several very good or great.


And what makes a good hole?  For most golf course architect’s, a good hole fits the land well, plays well (i.e., mostly visible, appropriate challenge, options, as fair as can be (i.e., a good shot doesn’t bound into water, well drained, agronomically sound, and in most cases, playable by all.  It should have some measure of aesthetics, fun, memorability, and is also be distinct from others on the course. Obviously, there are exceptions, and some of the world’s great holes violate some of the principles.  I've always thought the amateur architects here would go out of their way to buck these principles, but in this case, moderation probably goes a long way.


I had situations where I had to give up one spectacular hole because it took several bad holes to get to that one.  An example might be those lakefront/oceanfront holes, where there are steep cliffs nearby that won't accommodate holes well.  You might even include the tee shot on 8 Pebble being a compromise to build 7.  No problem as is, but what if 5, 6, and 9 were also awkward to build the one great hole?  The recent example of routing away from the ocean for variety over another few oceanfront holes is a good one.


I see Mike N agrees with me!  Whether most or even many gca's route courses figuring they can make it up with earthmoving is questionable in my mind.  First, most just don't have those kind of budgets and are forced to follow the land, and second, I think most gca's were trained to use the land.


I talked with two gca's over my career who commented that they accept that there will be a few bad holes on every routing, so they didn't spend that much time on them, and my jaw dropped.  The only course I can recall where the architect seemed to somewhat ignore the topo in routing was Flint Hills National near Wichita.  Several holes required heavy construction.  I can't say whether the topo was "ignored" due to arrogance, or perhaps as a private club, the owner required close green to tee walks, and some earthmoving to make that work resulted.  As someone said, it's hard to criticize if you don't know the architect's instructions.


Early in my time on this site, I recall there being a notion of a perfect routing for every site.  In reality, most routings involve some compromise, and maybe all routings at least require "decisions" about whether this individual hole is worth not having that one, etc.  I will also say, while we do try to keep feature designs in mind while routing, in general, I think most architects largely treat routing as a separate exercise, and follow large ground forms, even though features are interrelated.  For instance, most gca's wouldn't see a dogleg left when the ground slopes down to the right.  They would probably do a dogleg right.  They might see a natural spot for a bunker, or it may be that they simply place them later, considering how other holes are bunkered, budgets, and whatever else goes into the design.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike Hendren

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2022, 12:01:46 PM »
What Kyle said.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 12:08:30 PM by Michael H »
Two Corinthians walk into a bar ....

jim_lewis

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2022, 05:04:45 PM »
There may be some exceptions that I can't think of, but I think the optimum routing is always sacrificed when the owner/developer/architect insists that the ninth hole return to the clubhouse. I can think of a few examples where the course is better because even the 18th does not return to the clubhouse.
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

Kalen Braley

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2022, 05:11:02 PM »
I just perused the top 50 Golf courses in the Golf Mag 2021-2022 list.  While i'm not familiar with all of them, I'm guessing more of them have cross over points in the routing, than not.

And I'm guessing those same courses also have their fair share of fairly lengthy green to tee walks.  Should 15 and 16 at CPC been done different to avoid walk from 14 to 15, and then 15 to 16? (also agree with Mark, 15 is exceptional)

P.S.  I think a better spot for 18 green would have been just below the clubhouse.  Would have kept the hole similar length and avoided the very awkward elbow.  And presumably the trees were small enough to remove a few of them to allow for it.

Mark_Fine

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2022, 05:45:50 PM »
As most here know, in the beginning, “the walk“ from the hole your were playing to the next tee used to be only a few feet.  Slowly it spread to a few yards to,…, to the point where it could be a half mile drive or more in a golf cart.  But as much as I love when you walk off a green right onto the next teeing area, some of the best aspects of golf are those walks between holes.  Kalen mentions two of the most anticipated in all of golf, the walks from 14 green to 15 tee at Cypress Point followed by 15 green to 16 tee.  You feel like you are walking on hallowed ground and the thrill of knowing what lies ahead gives goosebumps the next entire way to anyone who has ever had the privilege.  When ever I take someone there I make them take those walks very slowly as it literally doesn’t get any better then that. Savor every step along the path.  In some ways I wish they were both longer. 

Mike_Trenham

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Re: Good and poor routings
« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2022, 08:30:24 PM »
Wrong thread for this thought.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2022, 08:33:10 PM by Mike_Trenham »
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