TPC Scottsdale #17 versus Riviera #10

[Jason Topp]

My impression is that the 10th at Riviera has become silly in the last 5-10 years with added green speed, the trees left and player analysis that has determined laying up is a poor option. 


Setting aside increased driving distance, 17 at TPC Scottsdale plays the same now as it always has. 

[Jim Sherma]

Agree with those that feel like Riviera's 10th has become goofy over the recent past given how it's maintained for the PGA tournament. I have no idea how it plays the other 51 weeks out of the year but it seems like the only good shot is to the small area past the green on the left hand side and right of the clump of trees. the green appears so severe at the maintained speed and firmness that the hole is entirely defensive. Did anyone lay-up to the left of the fairway bunkers? Given the slope of the green and where the cart path and building is down the left can you even get to a point left of the fairway bunkers that allow you to hit into the green's slope? It appears on the overhead that you would really want a fuller wedge into the green that has a chance of holding your drive would have to be in the building or the trees just past it. I am looking at this overhead:


https://www.google.com/maps/place/Riviera+Country+Club/@34.0466172,-118.5003618,196m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x80c2a3589363e83d:0x11738e458777ae41!8m2!3d34.0498288!4d-118.5013122

[Jerry Kluger]

97% of the field has gone for the green at #10 at Riviera. I don't know what the percentage was at #17 at Scottsdale but I do know it was a very small percentage of the field. So if a hole is a "drivable" par 4 how good could it be if no one attempts to drive it? 

[JESII]

Not sure if you typed that correctly Jerry…I’d bet a similar 90+% went for the green in Scottsdale. Are you saying those ratios support considering them both par 3’s?


I didn’t see as much of Riviera as I hoped but what I saw supports what I’ve said on here. Even with Driver/3wood in their hands, these guys are playing this hole defensively.

[V. Kmetz]

I can't speak for Scottsdale 17...I've never played it or been there, but as others have chorused...the difference between a penalty shot and a club in your hands can't be overstated...

Here's the thing about Riviera 10...it's the narrowest green you ever seen...those who have played 15 Fenway will think that is narrow...or the older versions of Engineers "2 or 20" hole...this my friends is NARROW...no margin...


I I can't say if this presentation is any more narrow or less severe in surrounds than in Thomas' or Hogan's day, but the thrill/demands of the hole architecturally-strategically is that even the lay up player is forced to be precise...but on the second shot of 90-45 yards...the closer it gets, the more demanding the shot. 

On the other hand, the bold player who looks for a 2 or simple 3 must be precise...but on the tee shot... the difference between a precise front edge hit of 288 and a slightly wilder 295 can be ruinous...and if you're long enough to reach that green complex (few of us are even in this conversation) you had better have a plan if that big hit goes 5 or 6 yards (12-18 feet) too much or too little...THEN the creativity must be applied and the result for inexecution is high... When I consider this facet, I can't think of another hole that forces you to have so much distance control with a Driver or 3w, except maybe Cypress 16...

THAT is what's fun about the hole, if you have distance enough to beat the left fairway bunker (like 220 ish) you still know you oughtn't hit driver, but want to see how it works out...I can't hit a precise 50 yard angled pitch over the front bunker off tight turf, but one in 7 tries (perhaps), but you're willing to risk it, because a 2 is available on a hole where it doesn't seem like it should be...

If the green wasn't cut in 12.5 - 13 area and more like a 8-9, I don't think there would be nearly as much accusations of "goofy" And another note about "what must the Riviera players think about THAT green" is to note that the alternate green is in much, much heavier use...and that alternate green, a mere 20 yards to the right makes the hole banal, simple and no big risk at all, probably one of Riviera's plainest hole when the alternate green is in use.

[Tommy Williamsen]

For a 75 year old, tenholds more interest and fear. Ten makes me think and execute on every shot. I can't reach the water on  seventeen. It is a drive and short pitch, just don't pull it.

[Adam Lawrence]

Here's the thing about Riviera 10...it's the narrowest green you ever seen...those who have played 15 Fenway will think that is narrow...or the older versions of Engineers "2 or 20" hole...this my friends is NARROW...no margin...

Narrower than the Postage Stamp? I've only been to Riviera once and I wouldn't like to say which is narrower. I suppose we could work it out using Google Earth.

[Kalen Braley]

The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.

But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.

[Kalen Braley]

Adam,

I fired up Google Earth and took a few measurements:

Postage Stamp:  14 yards wide in the front, 9 yards in the rear
Riv #10: 12 yards wide in the front, 9 yards in the rear.
Spyglass #4: 6 yards wide in the front, 10 yards in the rear.

[Jerry Kluger]

I watched both tournaments on Sunday and I don't remember seeing any player intentionally going for the green at #17 on Sunday - the rookie hit a hybrid at the green and it bounced over and into the water - I believe he made 5.  All the other players were trying to hit it right of the green.  So a drivable par 4 where the pros don't try to drive it is just a short par 4 where many players can make birdie but not one where they are looking to make eagle.


On Sunday at Riviera nearly all the players went at the green feeling that the risk was worth it and they could get up and down even if they missed the green. Justin Thomas was the only player I saw hit iron off the tee and wedge into the green and made par.  His playing partners went for the green and one chipped in for eagle and the other got up and down from the bunker for birdie. 

[Mike Bodo]

The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.

But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.

Were you to orient the 10th green at Riviera differently it nearly mirrors the 12th at Augusta as far as length, depth and shape is concerned.

[Kalen Braley]

The only one other green I can think of that resembles this is #4 at Spyglass.

But that green and surrounds is concave, whereas this one is convex, which almost seems insane for its tiny size.

Were you to orient the 10th green at Riviera differently it nearly mirrors the 12th at Augusta as far as length, depth and shape is concerned.

Yea, that's a good one too.

Google Earth shows it 13 yards deep on the left, 10 in the middle over the bunker, and 12 out to the right side.

[Tal Oz]

Jerry,
Carlos Ortiz went hole in one, eagle on 16-17 on Sunday at Phoenix. He hit his teeshot into 17 to 12'! These guys are going for the green and hedging against the big miss (left at TPC and right at Riviera) because going there is a 4 at best and opens the door to 6. In fact if anything, I'd say the pros are not trying to hit the green at Riviera since keeping it on that green is almost impossible.

https://www.pgatour.com/competition/2022/wm-phoenix-open/tourcast.html#/hole-view?pid=33667&round=4&cid=510&hole=17&group=17&gv=no

[Jeff Schley]

I don't see the similarities other than short par 4's. Riv #10 is a much tougher hole and green. TPC with water left make the pros think about tugging their tee ball, but not a huge concern.  For more drama, cut the water in towards the green and front left a touch or shorten it another 20 yards or so and expand the bunker short of the green.

For 10 at Riviera the only thing which would make it better is if it was played later in the round like hole 16/17/18 perhaps.  But it's orientation away from clubhouse won't allow for that, so a pipe dream.  Great hole and we all enjoy watching pros struggle on a short hole.

[Mike Bodo]

For 10 at Riviera the only thing which would make it better is if it was played later in the round like hole 16/17/18 perhaps.  But it's orientation away from clubhouse won't allow for that, so a pipe dream.  Great hole and we all enjoy watching pros struggle on a short hole.

+1!