[Ira Fishman]

If you were a developer or newly formed club and you wanted to take a chance on a younger architect with a non existent to thin portfolio, what criteria would you use to make the choice?


I am not looking for names, but rather the process for making the decision. Even the best architects had to get their first jobs somehow.


Ira

[Anthony Gray]

 A guy that had a father that was a superintendent. Set pins in the morning with his dad. Emptied the garbage cans. Learned to repair a mower. Silent around adults and soaked up their wisdom. Desired to be single most of his life. A loner. Plays off at 8. Hates ties. Spells Cruden Bay with a “K”. Low key thinker.

[Tom_Doak]

If you were a developer or newly formed club and you wanted to take a chance on a younger architect with a non existent to thin portfolio, what criteria would you use to make the choice?

I am not looking for names, but rather the process for making the decision. Even the best architects had to get their first jobs somehow.

Far and away the main question is experience:  who did they work for and what roles did they serve?


Anthony's list is more useful in finding good interns!

[Ally Mcintosh]

For someone with a non-existent portfolio to get a job, they need to be undercutting everyone else significantly with a Client who knows very little about the industry or one who has no money and is willing to take a risk that cheap also means good value…. Either that or be extremely lucky…. Or a liar.


That’s non-existent… on the other hand, if you just mean a first lead job for someone who has experience working for another architect, see Tom’s answer.

[Ira Fishman]

For someone with a non-existent portfolio to get a job, they need to be undercutting everyone else significantly with a Client who knows very little about the industry or one who has no money and is willing to take a risk that cheap also means good value…. Either that or be extremely lucky…. Or a liar.


That’s non-existent… on the other hand, if you just mean a first lead job for someone who has experience working for another architect, see Tom’s answer.

So where do Mr. Dye, RTJ, Fazio, Steele, Hackett, and Kidd fit into that analysis?


Ira

[Ally Mcintosh]

Think Dye, Hackett & Kidd are the outliers there. The others had all worked under someone else as far as I know.


Need to go back on my notes for Eddie but believe he falls under the “extremely lucky” bracket of just being asked randomly at a time when there was both no money and no other architect in Ireland; yet the game had just exploded after the 1960 Canada Cup.

[Ira Fishman]

Think Dye, Hackett & Kidd are the outliers there. The others had all worked under someone else as far as I know.


Need to go back on my notes for Eddie but believe he falls under the “extremely lucky” bracket of just being asked randomly at a time when there was both no money and no other architect in Ireland; yet the game had just exploded after the 1960 Canada Cup.

So 50% of those off the top of my head are either liars or lucky? And I am pretty sure that RTJ didn’t not work for anyone else. Fazio worked with his Uncle I think. I am sure I could name some others.


Ira

[Ally Mcintosh]

Not sure where you get your 60%…(RTJ worked for Stanley Thompson)


Hackett and Kidd came from a golf background and were in the right place at the right time (or at least that’s how I understand it with Kidd - someone can expand).


Dye seemed to work himself in to the business under his own steam.


But most guys get their first job after working for someone else. Think of someone in the last 20 years who got hired for a project without having any experience? It’s much different nowadays to the 50’s / 60’s… and very different again to the 20’s… Kidd must be the most high profile in recent times. I’m sure Tom / Jeff / Mike would know if there are any others…

[Ira Fishman]

Not sure where you get your 60%…(RTJ worked for Stanley Thompson)


Hackett and Kidd came from a golf background and were in the right place at the right time (or at least that’s how I understand it with Kidd - someone can expand).


Dye seemed to work himself in to the business under his own steam.


But most guys get their first job after working for someone else. Think of someone in the last 20 years who got hired for a project without having any experience? It’s much different nowadays to the 50’s / 60’s… and very different again to the 20’s… Kidd must be the most high profile in recent times. I’m sure Tom / Jeff / Mike would know if there are any others…

Fixed my %. And interesting that RTJ worked for Thompson. But 50% luck or liars still pretty high.


Ira

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ira,


You’re playing with numbers! 50% of the most likely 6 you could come up with… and only one in the last 60 years…


Anyway, point is that people don’t really get hired without some experience or background.


It would be really good to hear some real world examples of how some of the guys got their first big break though…

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,


You’re playing with numbers! 50% of the most likely 6 you could come up with… and only one in the last 60 years…


Anyway, point is that people don’t really get hired without some experience or background.


It would be really good to hear some real world examples of how some of the guys got their first big break though…

Exactly what I was trying to understand. Right now, the safe and probably smart choice is Doak, C&C, Kidd, Ebert, etc. But they are busy...and safe.


So how does a developer figure out how to find the next generation?


Ira

[JR Potts]

Ira,


You’re playing with numbers! 50% of the most likely 6 you could come up with… and only one in the last 60 years…


Anyway, point is that people don’t really get hired without some experience or background.


It would be really good to hear some real world examples of how some of the guys got their first big break though…

Exactly what I was trying to understand. Right now, the safe and probably smart choice is Doak, C&C, Kidd, Ebert, etc. But they are busy...and safe.


So how does a developer figure out how to find the next generation?


Ira

By interviewing them. By getting to know them. By calling and meeting with their references. By listening to referrals from the "current generation" who you respect. By reviewing their proposed work.  By comparing their proposed work against the other proposed work by the other architects/designers pitching the job.  By viewing the work they've done. By meeting the members/development partners who are stewards of the club/course where their past work was performed. By assembling a diverse group of decision makers and vetting and discussing each persons impressions as to the aforementioned and then making as informed of a decision as you can.

[JC Urbina]

Ira,


The first question I ask anyone in the business or someone trying to get a foot in the door is a simple one.  It's a way for me to get to know someone quickly. 


What are your 5 favorite golf courses?


Once I learn of their choices we can begin a dialogue that will clue me into their world.


Can they defend their choices, this tells me more about their conviction, their passion and if I was the developor considering them are we on the same page.


Tommy Naccarato has passion and conviction!

[Blake Conant]

A mix of Tom and Pottsy’s answer seems accurate. What have they done and who are they/what are their ideas?


So really, what’s the difference between developers vetting designers and an athletic director vetting a head coach? Some simply want to pay top dollar for the best available, some can pay but want to find value, some can’t pay but want to find value, some can’t pay and just need a body to get the job done.


In the end, water finds its level. Both on the developer side and the design side.

[Tom_Doak]

So how does a developer figure out how to find the next generation?

Ira:


Only a few are willing to try!


There is a real changing of the guard right now, as all of the previous generation is pretty much gone from the industry, and the jobs that used to go to them are entirely up for grabs.  But developers only believe there are three or four of us whose names are well known enough to be a safe choice, and at least two of us aren't going to build in volume.


I've turned down three jobs in the last three months, and every single developer wanted to have a conversation about where they should look for someone else.  Usually the discussion is about guys who have done a couple of good projects but aren't well known names -- Kyle Phillips, Dana Fry, Tim Jackson and David Kahn, Keith Foster.  [I realize that most people on GCA know all about them; the readers of GOLF DIGEST do not.]  Only one [so far] has wanted to hear my input on which of my own ex associates and interns are the best prepared.  I've always tried to avoid that question because it's a pretty touchy one, but if I'm not going to tell them, who should?

[Mike_Young]

Ira,


You’re playing with numbers! 50% of the most likely 6 you could come up with… and only one in the last 60 years…


Anyway, point is that people don’t really get hired without some experience or background.


It would be really good to hear some real world examples of how some of the guys got their first big break though…

I convinced a seed salesman I knew who sold to golf courses while I was selling equipment...He had the land and wanted a course...I worked on it for 2.5 years and while doing got two other jobs from it...
A little RTJ story and how people start...my wife's grandfather came over from Germany to help build the  Fairchild Botanical Gardens in Miami with a guy named Bill Phillips who was a partner of  Frederick Olmsted.  Her grandfather was a fellow named Hans Schmeisser who later designed and built several golf courses in S Florida( according to Whitten book)  Every winter S. Florida was saturated with northern golf people.  His two sons, Otto and John worked with him and one day RTJ came by and asked if he could hire them.  John went to work for RTJ and became the head of his construction arm(Florida Golf) building places like Spyglass and others with him until he died in the 80's.  ..Otto( my wife's father) became the supt at Indian Creek, Gulfstream, and Everglades all because of that meeting...on any given sunday afternoon there would be a cookout at the maintenance building where most supt houses were located..  Flynn, Wilson, Vonn Hagge, Hogan, Marr, Dickinson were all in the mix...wish I could have been a fly on the wall..

[Mike_Young]

You can't say enough about the young guys out there right now who would be good.  IMHO they all learned the "drawing/autocad etc "aspects in school and interned in the dirt and then were wanting and willing to get in the dirt as soon as they could and forget the office  The tough thing is they have such a passion for the work they do that they don't get into the selling....but that's not all bad...Volume or Quantity of work vs quality is a tough road, especially on lower budgets...   If it wasn't for marketing RE the golf course architect name across the country would not be known anymore than the supt.  And that really didn't happen until the 80's.  I think this generation can accept not being known nationally and building a good product...

[Jeff_Brauer]

After being in business for a few months, I got my first new job - a 9 hole extension to a country club in La - when their main mover got my name off the ASGCA list.  I had no experience under my own banner, but he and I were in a similar situation - he had just left his old boss to form a new irrigation company, and by chance, he had played one course in Texas where I had been associate doing the plans.  He had some idea of my work and was sympathetic to my situation.


If you are going to be spending millions, there has to be something that convinces you that it will be well spent, albeit, and that you will enjoy working together.  It may not be a lot to go on, but it has to be something.  And, as a gca later in life, you tend to look down on those owners who do seem to make crazy hires, but then you just have to remember someone took a crazy chance on you way back when, so you sit back and wish them well, even knowing that statistically, a high percentage of those will probably turn out to be one hit wonders (or more accurately, one miss wonders).


As a non-regulated profession, no one can say it's the most efficient system, but I think the US has always been geared to randomness (more than Europe, IMHO) that allows lights to shine if things fall right for them.

[Tom_Doak]

I think my story is reasonably well known, but after 3 1/2 years with the Dyes, I quit my job with Perry Dye at age 25, without any idea of what to do next.  I started writing a bit more for GOLF Magazine, and also started writing what became The Confidential Guide.  I went down and spent a day in Tom Fazio's office, not to ask for a job really, but just to see what they were about.


The next spring, I just started traveling to see courses again, and get back to some favorites.  One of those was Crystal Downs, which I'd seen while I was in college, but on a horrible day.  I stayed a few days with the golf pro, Fred Muller, and really got to know him.  Two weeks later, another golf pro, Doug Grove, called Fred and asked his advice on who to recommend to a friend who wanted to build a course in Traverse City, and Fred responded, "He was just here."


Seven of my first eight jobs came directly as the result of a recommendation like that, from someone I'd met while I was traveling around to see courses in college.  [The other one, Black Forest, came off the back of High Pointe.]  It's really just luck when that happens, but the more people you know, the luckier you are likely to be.  And it really helped that all of them met me when I was just a student, rather than somebody trying to sell them something.

[Ira Fishman]

Ira,


The first question I ask anyone in the business or someone trying to get a foot in the door is a simple one.  It's a way for me to get to know someone quickly. 


What are your 5 favorite golf courses?


Once I learn of their choices we can begin a dialogue that will clue me into their world.


Can they defend their choices, this tells me more about their conviction, their passion and if I was the developor considering them are we on the same page.


Tommy Naccarato has passion and conviction!

This resonates with me based on hiring dozens if not more people. I will choose a knowledgeable, passionate applicant over a good resume 7 out of 10 times. People with high ceilings generally lead to far better outcomes. The 30% represents positions where technical skills are insurance against real problems (Accounting, IT, Security for example).


Too bad that so many developers want to play it safe, but that happens with other forms of architecture as well. Another post talks about Mark Parsinen. I am not a fan of either KB or CS, but I give him credit for not going with safe (Hanse was not yet in that category).


What actually is astonishing is that a government process led to Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial.


Ira

[Tom_Doak]

What actually is astonishing is that a government process led to Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial.

I was in college then, and as soon as we saw the winning entry, we all thought, “Great design actually wins.”


And as I started to type that, I also had the thought that she was an Asian student, at Yale, which would be 100% the politically correct choice if they held the competition today!


P.S.  The problem with your system for hiring is that in golf architecture, MOST of the applicants are passionate about the topic.  So there are still a lot of candidates to sort through!  We are going through that right now, trying to choose a couple more interns for the crew in Wisconsin this summer.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Ira,


The first question I ask anyone in the business or someone trying to get a foot in the door is a simple one.  It's a way for me to get to know someone quickly. 


What are your 5 favorite golf courses?


Once I learn of their choices we can begin a dialogue that will clue me into their world.


Can they defend their choices, this tells me more about their conviction, their passion and if I was the developor considering them are we on the same page.


Tommy Naccarato has passion and conviction!

This resonates with me based on hiring dozens if not more people. I will choose a knowledgeable, passionate applicant over a good resume 7 out of 10 times. People with high ceilings generally lead to far better outcomes. The 30% represents positions where technical skills are insurance against real problems (Accounting, IT, Security for example).


Too bad that so many developers want to play it safe, but that happens with other forms of architecture as well. Another post talks about Mark Parsinen. I am not a fan of either KB or CS, but I give him credit for not going with safe (Hanse was not yet in that category).


What actually is astonishing is that a government process led to Maya Lin's Vietnam Memorial.


Ira

I think that approach works well for certain positions. I too tend to fall that way whenever possible.


In GCA, it can be very hard for a developer to really understand who is passionate and capable of delivering their first project as lead…. Vs who is passionate but needs a guiding hand to oversee them…. To run a job from start to finish, there are a variety of skills needed, some that are best suited to experience. So it would be very unusual for someone with no experience to be chosen unless they are supplemented in the areas they are weak. And most clients aren’t going to be able to see through the smoke and mirrors to work that out themselves…


On the other hand, if you are using examples of Kyle Phillips at Kingsbarns or Gil Hanse at Castle Stuart, then absolutely. These guys were very experienced when hired for those jobs.

[Tom_Doak]

On the other hand, if you are using examples of Kyle Phillips at Kingsbarns or Gil Hanse at Castle Stuart, then absolutely. These guys were very experienced when hired for those jobs.

That's a weird example, because I had the distinct sense that Mark Parsinen hired both Kyle and Gil because they were at a point in their careers where they would leverage the opportunity to advance their careers . . . but also couldn't afford to lose the opportunity, so they'd yield to whatever Mark wanted.


I guess, really, a lot of times that is what is going to get a young architect his big break, though . . . because the client wants to exert more control, and he doesn't think the established guys will yield to him.

[Don Mahaffey]

If Al Stanger were alive today, I'm 100% certain he'd say he's glad he didn't follow the formulas mentioned here when he picked a designer for Wolf Point. 

Regrettably there aren't a lot of Al's out there. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Don,  you don't think Mike highlighted that he had at least some experience with FDS?  I think that, Mike's enthusiasm, and the notion that he was at that "leverage point" TD mentions sound like factors in his hire, no?  However it happened, a great choice and a great finished product.


OT on the enthusiasm part, in my 44 years of experience, even when they are interviewing 3-5 veteran archies, the guy or gal who is most enthusiastic in their presentations and meetings (and while walking the site) usually gets the job.  It is a problem for some gca's who often think they should project a reserved, professional image, or those who are just naturally reserved.  I think you need to stop just short of jumping up and down, and shouting, "Golly Gee Wilikers, I couldn't wait to get here and show you my proposed routing!!!!!!!"  Yes, you must project that you are that excited about THEIR project, not just golf architecture in general. 


That is probably where the "This is the best site I have ever seen" phrase got started.   And, in reality, if the Owner wants a 12 hole golf course, you should probably be very excited about the idea of more 12 hole courses.  Or at least, something between 11 and 13.[size=78%]  [/size]

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