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Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #25 on: January 03, 2022, 12:41:23 PM »
Niall,


From what I have read (and that is only what I read here) my thought was that Darius would most likely be a design consultant, at least from the perspective of Mike D and most of us who do it full time for a living.  I base that on working with numerous pros, who at many times have suggested changes similar to what Darius did on THAT project, and who are more comfortable with the title of consultant.


It's an interesting question we struggle with.  Is a golf course architect someone who has designed several courses and has an ever improving track record, or is it someone who got paid something for some undefined service just once somewhere?  Or, 2-3 times to prove a pattern?


Sorry Jeff, our posts crossed over. On your first paragraph, why would you consult with someone who knows less than you ?  ;)  Or to put it another way, what expertise do they have that you don't ?


On your second paragraph I'd have thought that the basic criteria would be someone who could provide the basic service competently. Note I'm referring to the service rather than the quality of the design.


Niall

Niall C

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Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2022, 12:44:12 PM »

If you want to call both sub-sets golf course architects then fine, and if you want to call them both golf course designers then also fine but are you really saying there is no difference between the two ?


Niall


Yes that is what I’m saying.




Ally


I have to say I'm very surprised you say that.


Niall

Ally Mcintosh

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Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2022, 12:49:08 PM »

If you want to call both sub-sets golf course architects then fine, and if you want to call them both golf course designers then also fine but are you really saying there is no difference between the two ?


Niall


Yes that is what I’m saying.




Ally


I have to say I'm very surprised you say that.


Niall


I’m surprised you’re surprised. Just look round at the number of people who call themselves Golf Course Architects without a relevant professional qualification (in Building or Landscape Architecture) and with very little experience under their belt.


I’m hardly brimming with New Builds myself and flip-flop between Designer and Architect, sometimes in the same paragraph.


What I do have in addition is an engineering background with 25 years in managing large construction projects. Funnily enough, I always call myself a “Golf Course Designer” when talking to a real Building “Architect”. Probably there’s a level of embarrassment in commandeering their professional title.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 12:55:30 PM by Ally Mcintosh »

Adam Lawrence

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2022, 01:00:36 PM »
I think what Niall wants someone to say is that there is a role for someone who says 'Let's have a bunker here' and 'Let's do a Redan green here' but leaves the drainage, earthmoving and whatever to someone else. But there really isn't.


This is just the myth of the signature designer over again. Mr Several Majors isn't walking a property with Mr Architect and saying 'Let's do a 470 yard dogleg right here, and you'll fix the drainage right?' At most he is walking a routing that has already been done and suggesting the a bunker might move a few feet. Mostly he's just glad-handing the client and some bigwigs and banking a cheque.
Adam Lawrence

Editor, Golf Course Architecture
www.golfcoursearchitecture.net

Principal, Oxford Golf Consulting
www.oxfordgolfconsulting.com

Author, 'More Enduring Than Brass: a biography of Harry Colt' (forthcoming).

Short words are best, and the old words, when short, are the best of all.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #29 on: January 03, 2022, 01:07:19 PM »
Niall,


From what I have read (and that is only what I read here) my thought was that Darius would most likely be a design consultant, at least from the perspective of Mike D and most of us who do it full time for a living.  I base that on working with numerous pros, who at many times have suggested changes similar to what Darius did on THAT project, and who are more comfortable with the title of consultant.


It's an interesting question we struggle with.  Is a golf course architect someone who has designed several courses and has an ever improving track record, or is it someone who got paid something for some undefined service just once somewhere?  Or, 2-3 times to prove a pattern?


Sorry Jeff, our posts crossed over. On your first paragraph, why would you consult with someone who knows less than you ?  ;)  Or to put it another way, what expertise do they have that you don't ?


On your second paragraph I'd have thought that the basic criteria would be someone who could provide the basic service competently. Note I'm referring to the service rather than the quality of the design.


Niall


Well, the first is obvious......the Owner somehow believes having a Tour Pro will help them in design or more likely marketing.  As for the GCA, well he gets to say he hung with a celebrity golfer.  I have learned something from each of those guys, so it was worth it.  And of course, in a few cases, I wouldn't have gotten the project without them. 


Behind the scenes, they always want me to add them to my professional E and O policy, which can be done, for a fee, depending on the carrier.  Some won't do it, not understanding why someone with no credentials would have any responsibility for design, which is sort of what your question asks, but that is the golf world and most look the other way. 


And, behind the scenes, most agents have contracts drawn up that say he is involved for limited purposes, which generally include a few site visits and adding ideas from the perspective of a golf professional, but attempting to limit the scope of their input, at least legally.  And, to be honest, I can only recall one case where a Tour Pro and I battled over something, which was he wanted to put a practice bunker very much in the safety zone of an adjacent hole and practice range.  When told I would write a letter saying he demanded it be put there, he backed off, sensing perhaps I knew more than he about what might get you sued.


And yes, the second criteria should be "can they provide the service competently" and in reality, it happens all the time, including my own self, starting my own business, but believing and convincing someone I was competent by virtue of seven years as an apprentice to a qualified firm doing similar services.  In those cases, again, maybe the title means nothing.  If you were considering minimum qualifications to join ASGCA or similar, then perhaps a pattern of existing success (which has always been our standard for new members) would still be the ability to and having provided the service successfully.  Of course, as long as people are involved, I doubt we would not consider design quality. 


For example, when city bids got more common and complicated back in the 1950's a few civil engineers got involved because they could draw plans to city bid standards.  A few went on to be pretty good gca's but others provided great draining and irrigated golf courses with little golf merit, and typically didn't get in ASGCA or even apply (although I would have to check that history)  But, they still got work because of their technical skill.


Again, titles and such are really nebulous in gca.  It is what it is, LOL. At least here.  I think the point I am making is that in the real world, there are contracts, standards of care, responsibilities, etc.  And certainly Tour Pros are very aware that they would be considered "deep pockets" and seek to limit their liability.  And in reality, I have had tour pros listed as designer by the develope, and yet, despite a two year design and construction process, never met the man.  Others make a few suggestions.  Some provide an over riding philosophy from  "Don't make it too hard" or "I want highly contoured greens" or "I want it to look traditional" to some who really explain just how they think it should play in the prevailing wind, or what kind of shots should be required on an over 200 yard par 3, etc. 


I believe, that legally, none of those above would be considered practicing golf course architecture (or design).  Routing, safety standards, green specs, drainage, irrigation, environmental, permitting, etc. are probably the more accepted definition.  And, you can get sued for those.  I can't recall anyone getting sued for bunker placement, LOL.


So, maybe that is the clearest definition between architecture and "playing in the dirt" or consulting.  If you can get sued for it, you are probably a golf course architect?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2022, 01:15:04 PM »
I should add, as I re-read my post, it goes without saying that most of us who have successfully created golf courses and got them built are at least mildly offended by the lack of respect for what knowledge goes into that. 


I once joked that the minimum qualifications to be a gca was once "having successfully designed five courses" but that it had morphed to "have written at least one book on any aspect of golf course architecture."  Naturally, anyone trying to get in the business has that right (including a much younger me) while anyone who has been doing it a while looks on in wonder as what we believe are unqualified people get massive design contracts.  To us, it is sort of history repeating itself, with owners really not often fully informed as to what they are getting into.


And, we hold our tongues because 1) we were those guys once, and 2) every so often, that un or under qualified gcd/gca actually turns out to be pretty good.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jim Sherma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2022, 01:27:58 PM »
To revisit past conversations regarding semantics pertaining to the historic attribution of course design responsibilities - was it the architect or the designer who was responsible for having "laid-out" or "laying-out" the course in question.


 ???
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 02:07:45 PM by Jim Sherma »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2022, 01:49:11 PM »
Jim,


Don't get me started, as I posted on the other thread, I am resolute in not revisiting anything to do with those Merion threads.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2022, 03:54:44 PM »
Architects know how to route an 18 hole golf course, and how to make sure that it drains properly -- and they have successfully proven it 'on the ground' at least a few times.

Those who claim a 'thorough understanding of design' are usually writers or raters who can theorize about the process, describe post-facto a professionally-routed 18 hole golf course that drains well, and on occasion toss off a few ideas to the construction crew about adding a frill to a bunker here or smoothing out a green contour there.

I wonder, on a case study like Cape Wickham, if we could rightly surmise who the architect was and who the one with an understanding of design?


« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 05:05:18 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2022, 04:06:45 PM »
Peter,


I will disagree that a writer or others can have a thorough understanding of design without knowing how to route and drain a course.  They are so intertwined, no?  Basically, you are saying critics truly understand architects, no?  It also implies that it takes someone besides the golf course architect to really conceptualize a golf hole or course, a statement with which most of us in the biz would disagree.   I know TD has sort of stated that many here could design a course, but I am not as sure, LOL.


But, I get your basic premise, and yes, the gca is the one who can and mostly has (although everyone has a first project) get a real live, functioning golf course built on the ground, with some degree of aesthetics, playability, etc.  I don't think any of the Tour  Pros I have worked with would even begin to think they could do that.  Not sure about Mr. Oliver, and who knows, maybe his writing, touring, ranking, etc., combined with one experience originally led by Mike DeVries was enough to allow him to do that.  It is possible, if not likely.  Besides, whatever anyone learns, there is still almost more to learn. 


In my case, after 7 years as an apprentice, I figured I would learn quicker if I was head of my own company and responsible for my own mistakes.


I am participating here because it is a subject that has recently interested me.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Peter Pallotta

Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2022, 04:25:40 PM »
Jeff - I agree with you. If my post seems to differ from yours, it is because I was trying to give those who claim to have 'a thorough understanding of design' as much benefit of the doubt as I could, in the name of being fair minded and measured. But the truth is I have little doubt who the 'architect' was on CW, in part because for all the many words he uses and (sole) credit he takes, even DO himself doesn't claim to have come up with the routing for the course.

(As I noted on that thread, it's striking to me that in the entire essay only one very short sentence makes mention of the 'routing' -- which for decades has been a skill/function by which we've judged an architect's worth and talent.)
 

« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 04:47:55 PM by Peter Pallotta »

Charles Lund

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« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 05:26:18 PM by Charles Lund »

Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2022, 05:13:30 PM »
You guys are missing the best ones - the superlatives - that go before either word.

(to be read with the same voice of the announcer at a monster truck show)  ;D

"Foremost"
"World Renowned
"Veteran" (is veteran actually a subtle insult?)
"Experienced"
"Famed"
"Famous"
"Respected"
"Legendary"
"Iconic"
"Revered" (upon death)

I'm sure I've missed a bunch ...
"Appreciate the constructive; ignore the destructive." -- John Douglas

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2022, 06:44:41 PM »
When someone asks me what I do, I usually reply that "I build golf courses," or that "I design golf courses," as Mr. Dye always did.  Architecting is not a verb, so I rarely use that term.


Nobody is going to use "designer" in Niall's meaning of "making decisions about golf holes but not actually knowing how to build them," because that's clearly a sign of weakness.  If that's what some people think when I say I'm a designer, the joke's on them, just like it is if they assume saying "I build golf courses" means I'm a laborer.




The "co-designer" tag is tricky because more often than not, it's mostly about what the owner wants people to think.  On the other hand, where I've shared design credit, some people assume that I must not have been very involved if I'm giving someone else partial credit . . . but those people obviously must not know me too well, or understand what I do.  Every course so far with my name on it is mine more than it is anyone else's.


I've considered going to a business model where I do the routing and then let my associates do more of the job and take more of the credit, but it's tough to figure out how to do that and be clear what the deal is, because so many people make so many bad assumptions.  The irony is, the more I would back away from being the principal designer, the more the client will want to give the impression that I was the main guy.




Erik J. Barzeski

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2022, 08:17:41 PM »
And he says , "well I want you to know I do have a clue"  And I told him that was an insult.  I said you practice law 60 hours a week and I would never tell you I had a clue about the law.  I practice this 60 hours a week or more.
"Having a clue" isn't the same as knowing all that you know, though, no? I "have a clue" about politics, even though I'm not a politician. I take "having a clue" as having a little knowledge, not knowing as much as masters. It's a "clue," after all, not "the answer" or "all of the knowledge."

As for "architect" versus "designer," it seems awfully similar to the recent thing in instruction to call yourself a "coach."
Erik J. Barzeski @iacas
Author, Lowest Score Wins, Instructor/Coach, and Lifetime Student of the Game.

I generally ignore Rob, Tim, Garland, and Chris.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2022, 09:00:20 PM »
.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 12:40:31 AM by Mike_Young »
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2022, 09:18:02 PM »
I sent a private note to Niall but he might not have seen it.   

Back in 1959, a guy by the name of Pete Dye announced he was bored with the insurance business and wanted to build golf courses. Alice wasn't worried about a drastic drop in income as Pete had built up a nice stash, so they had money that allowed him to try to design courses for a living and still pay the bills. Pete took out a newspaper ad that declared him to be a “golf course architect”. Alice's father, a lawyer, told Pete that was false advertising because he didn't have a degree in architecture.  From that point on, Pete always called himself a “golf course designer”.  Just think how many great Golf Architects this insurance salesman has mentored and ushered into the business.  Pete didn’t do too bad himself maneuvering his way into the business and figuring it all out. 

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2022, 08:01:27 AM »
Mark


We're in different time zones so have only just got your message. Yes, Dye was an insurance salesman, and MacKenzie a Doctor, Colt a solicitor, Simpson a solicitor and Fowler a banker etc and I appreciate that everyone has to start somewhere. As a professional in my field I'm also acutely aware of being held liable and the possibility of being sued but that really is not what I'm driving at. My point is that at some point the client is going to ask how do we do this and how much is it going to cost ? Or alternatively they may say this is how much I've got to spend, what are you going to give me for my money ?


If the architect/designer (call them what you want) can't answer those questions then I suspect the chances of the project moving forward are going to be slim at best. Do they even qualify to be called an architect/designer if they can't answer those questions ? If they design something but don't know how to deliver it eg. bunker or green construction, and don't have a handle on how much it is likely to cost then is that really design or just wishful thinking ?


Niall

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2022, 09:35:09 AM »
Niall,
No worries. 

Dye and those others must have figured out how to answer those questions to get the work that they got to get going in the business as it didn’t come from for example Dye’s insurance sales training  :D


The thing most of us have found in this business is if you can’t deliver on those questions and on an end product that golfers/club members like, you won’t stay in the business very long.  Fancy websites and clever PowerPoint presentations might get you one job but you then better deliver or you won’t get many more.

And by the way, I know Mike Young feels differently but if I want just my kitchen redesigned, I am glad there are designers/consultants/advisors (call them what you want) out there that don’t just tell me they have to build me a whole new house to get an improved kitchen  :D  Also, the firm we used to build our deck and finish our basement doesn't build new homes but he sure was good at what he specialized in. 


« Last Edit: January 04, 2022, 10:06:28 AM by Mark_Fine »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2022, 10:04:23 AM »
.


Mike, well said.....brief and to the point!


Actually, before you deleted your original message, I was going to respond snarkily....as in "You say you can't write as much as me.....and yet......."


I had a few other points to make, but then I slept and forgot them.  I am sure we will survive.....and maybe prosper because I didn't.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2022, 10:11:19 AM »
Niall,


Sort of relevant, but a look at the traditional pay breakout for plans based architects typically went something like this


Up front payment - 10%
Prelim/Concept Design - 10%
Design Development (more detail and quantities, first estimate, permit drawings) - 15%
Construction Drawings and Bid Package - 45%
Field Supervision/Construction Admin - 20%  (Note, engineers and building architects are typically at 5-10%, which reflects that gca's typically do spend more time in the field and do not rely on plans to convey everything.


Short version, the biggest chunks (just about 2/3) of an architect's value is in getting the project built, and about 1/3 of the value is in design of some kind.  So, your assumption about what clients want from an architect (and of course, the value is about the same for design-build types, I suspect) They either don't really care about design, or trust that who they have hired will produce a design of similar quality as what they have done in the past.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2022, 11:15:49 AM »
.


Mike, well said.....brief and to the point!


Actually, before you deleted your original message, I was going to respond snarkily....as in "You say you can't write as much as me.....and yet......."


I had a few other points to make, but then I slept and forgot them.  I am sure we will survive.....and maybe prosper because I didn't.
Thanks..I'm a a grumpy old white guy...no matter what I am called..
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2022, 11:30:21 AM »
Niall,
No worries. 

Dye and those others must have figured out how to answer those questions to get the work that they got to get going in the business as it didn’t come from for example Dye’s insurance sales training  :D


The thing most of us have found in this business is if you can’t deliver on those questions and on an end product that golfers/club members like, you won’t stay in the business very long.  Fancy websites and clever PowerPoint presentations might get you one job but you then better deliver or you won’t get many more.

And by the way, I know Mike Young feels differently but if I want just my kitchen redesigned, I am glad there are designers/consultants/advisors (call them what you want) out there that don’t just tell me they have to build me a whole new house to get an improved kitchen  :D  Also, the firm we used to build our deck and finish our basement doesn't build new homes but he sure was good at what he specialized in.
Look dude..you are missing my point...as long as the guy who just improves kitchens or builds decks doesn't tell the client he can build the entire house when he has never done it.  No problem here...

As for how Pete Dye did it...I did it basically the same way...more than one or two have started that way but we were born at the right time.  But the client knew what he was getting and I was fortunate it worked that way.  But today so many clients innocently accept the guy touching up the Mona Lisa as Michaelangelo...and don't realize he may never have done a painting...I will never be convinced that the soul of golf design is the routing. 
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2022, 11:39:22 AM »

My point is that at some point the client is going to ask how do we do this and how much is it going to cost ? Or alternatively they may say this is how much I've got to spend, what are you going to give me for my money ?

If the architect/designer (call them what you want) can't answer those questions then I suspect the chances of the project moving forward are going to be slim at best. Do they even qualify to be called an architect/designer if they can't answer those questions ? If they design something but don't know how to deliver it eg. bunker or green construction, and don't have a handle on how much it is likely to cost then is that really design or just wishful thinking ?



Niall:


The "designer" with no training is probably going to rely on a young guy with training, or maybe a golf course contractor, to put a number to the construction cost.  If in doubt, they tend to just throw out a big number, and assume the client doesn't know it's too much.  After all, if the client was really sophisticated, he probably would be hiring the guy with no experience in the first place!


For my first design, I worked with a golf course superintendent who was my project manager and grow-in guy, and we did a cost estimate.  He suggested to me that instead of just putting bottom-line numbers on shaping and drainage and the rest, we break it down into a monthly spreadsheet of when and how the money would be spent.  He said with that, as long as we were going along and not spending more any month than what we'd estimated, the client wouldn't worry we had spent half a million dollars and none of the holes were ready to play yet.  That method worked like a charm, and I used it until I got to the point where clients didn't even ask about the budget anymore.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architect or Designer ?
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2022, 12:38:51 PM »
Mike,
I don't think I am missing your point.  As I have said many times, most (especially these days) never get the chance to show/prove that they could build a new golf course from scratch and I highly doubt those guys are winning new design contracts anyway.  Most courses/projects these days DON'T need a new routing so why do you always focus so much on that skill for guys who are doing restoration/renovation/redesign work and not trying to build/route a golf course from scratch?  Maybe you feel differently but I don't see a lot of BS in this business.  You either know what you are doing and stay employed with projects or you disappear pretty fast.  You can't fake a good bunker or an improved golf hole.  It is either well accepted or it sucks and if it sucks word will get around fast and you won't get many more jobs to screw up! 


Seems Pete Dye (with his insurance sales training) and many others back then got in "at the right time" but maybe it was just easier back then to use what ever  smoke and mirrors  :D  they had to get their first few clients to take a chance on them.  As Tom Doak just said, there are smart ways to work with others who have different strengths to help you get into this business and build trust with clients.  And by the way, not many inexperienced people are getting the equivalent of the Mona Lisa to touch up.  Not sure where you are coming from on that one?  Most of the courses they are getting are pretty disfigured and from years of change and committee 'improvements".  If you have even half a clue, this is not always rocket science.