News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2022, 05:48:59 PM »
Like I said, "a few weeks here and there of localised restrictions."









Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2022, 06:10:32 PM »
It has been a lot more than “a few weeks here and there”.

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2022, 10:33:12 PM »
I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years, so they've done next to no business during COVID.  The new owners of Cape Wickham have very deep pockets, so there's no fear of it going bankrupt, but it's far removed from the rest of their business interests and I'm not sure if they understand the place or even HAVE a long-term business model for it.


For what it's worth, on Twitter Darius claims they're nearly full for the rest of this season and well into next summer.  So if that's true, sounds like they're hanging in there.
https://twitter.com/Planet_Golf/status/1476370609990864897

Tony Dear

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2022, 05:38:12 PM »
I shared a few emails with Darius 18 months ago when working on a profile of DeVries which aimed to highlight Mike's career accomplishments (of which Cape Wickham was undoubtedly one). Without sharing too many details of what was a confidential email, it became clear in reading Darius's first message that the story was worth way more than my 1,000 words (the Cape Wickham part was probably only a quarter of that) was going to cover.
I wince a bit now when I read the article given Darius's post and new details that have come to light. I don't suppose there is much I can do about that, but there it is.
One thing I will share is that Darius wrote Mike did "much of the routing" which seems to run contrary to what he said in his PlanetGolf post where he wrote "Duncan, Mike and I then produced the final routing."
As others have said here, I think design credit should ultimately go to the person that routes the course which, if the words in Darius's email are true, was Mike. If, in fact, Duncan Andrews, Darius and Mike worked equally on the routing (how would you calculate something like that?) then you might have to consider who did the most work on the individual holes once the routing was in place or, alternatively, name all three as co-designers.
Again, as others have mentioned, I don't think it was in Darius's best interests to post his 'Inside Story', and it was probably better coming from someone else. I totally understand him wanting the world to know the truth (at least what he considers the truth) though. Then again, how many people besides Duncan Andrews and Andrew Purchase really know the whole truth? And, given he has chosen Darius for his Kangaroo Island course, wouldn't Andrew also want the world to know how much Darius contributed at Cape Wickham? As for Mike, if he's asked about it my guess is he'll give as close to a "No comment" as he can without being rude.
Bottom line - if the situation calls for a quick response, I'll continue to call it a Devries design. If, however, I'm discussing the design story over a long lunch with someone who cares, I'll certainly be mentioning what Darius did (or claims to have done).
Funnily (actually, it's not very funny at all), before all this broke, I included the 18th in a '21 Great Holes from the 21st Century' article, saying "...architect Mike DeVries, together with Australian designer Darius Oliver...".
I'm not sure what that distinction means exactly (I notice there is a newer thread on the 'Architect v Designer' question), but it worked for me.
Lastly, all the best to Cape Wickham and the rest of the island/state. I sincerely hope it survives the pandemic.
Tony

Ken Fry

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2022, 09:22:25 AM »
Let me ask this question.

George Crump has been credited for his vision in producing one of the greatest golf courses in the world.  He's listed with Henry Colt as the primary designers (of course we all know more people were involved in varying degrees).

Henry Fownes is credited with designing one course but it's a highly thought of course.

Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2022, 11:10:57 AM »
Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


I think it would be appropriate to call either of them "architect (or designer) of the renowned Oakmont CC/Pine Valley CC.  Maybe I'm applying a definition to "renowned" that oversells it a bit.  But here's another angle on your question, Ken.  I have not been to Bandon, but the consensus from people I've talked to seems to be that the original course is typically their least favorite on the property.  Was DMK "renowned" after Bandon Dunes?  Would he be "renowned" if he hadn't somewhat resurrected his post Castle Course career with Gamble Sands and Mammoth Dunes, etc.?  I think a particular property can be renowned, but I would submit that it takes a larger body of work for an artist/author/architect to gain that distinction.  But eye of the beholder and all that.

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #56 on: January 06, 2022, 04:25:12 PM »
Agree, Bill. And further to that, if someone is "renowned", they don't need to insist upon it themselves.


Like Margaret Thatcher's "Being powerful is like being a lady: if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #57 on: January 06, 2022, 11:20:39 PM »
Agree, Bill. And further to that, if someone is "renowned", they don't need to insist upon it themselves.


Like Margaret Thatcher's "Being powerful is like being a lady: if you have to tell people you are, you aren't."
Scott,


IMO, your Margaret Thatcher quote certainly applies.


As for George Crump, my impression is he would not have described himself as a “renowned golf course architect”, nor would he have approved anyone else doing so.
Tim Weiman

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #58 on: January 12, 2022, 09:27:03 PM »

Scott Warren

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2022, 12:34:27 AM »
This is all incredibly pathetic. Credit to Mike DeVries for having the good sense to not get dragged into it. Not that there’s any sign he was approached for comment as part of this story…

Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2022, 01:35:53 AM »
This is all incredibly pathetic. Credit to Mike DeVries for having the good sense to not get dragged into it. Not that there’s any sign he was approached for comment as part of this story…

Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?
Scott,


Yes. Darius made himself look really bad. Based on my limited exposure to Mike, he is smarter than that.
Tim Weiman

Bill Seitz

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2022, 10:09:46 AM »
Is Selwyn Berg a journalist or Duncan Andrews’ PR guy?


Can't say I'm a huge fan of interview articles that don't actually transcribe the entire interview.  "In light of recent 'shots fired' regarding the design of Cape Whickham, we took the opportunity to sit down with and talk"... but we're only going to actually print a few snippets from that conversation.  They published more of Tom's comments from this thread than they did of their discussion with Mr. Andrews.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2022, 03:49:33 PM by Bill Seitz »

John Mayhugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2022, 02:56:43 PM »
The Berg "interview" is pretty bad. If you want to extensively quote someone, at least actually contact them. It reads like he wanted to refute Tom Doak's comments on GCA, but not risk contacting Tom and asking questions.

Also, I agree with Bill that something more like a transcript is a better way to share an interview.



Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2022, 03:16:43 PM »
The Berg "interview" is pretty bad. If you want to extensively quote someone, at least actually contact them. It reads like he wanted to refute Tom Doak's comments on GCA, but not risk contacting Tom and asking questions.



Yes.  Although I doubt I would have agreed to an interview if they HAD asked, which they did not.

John Emerson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2022, 05:54:13 PM »
There has to be shapers, crew members, superintendents etc that worked on the project and can verify what’s truth and what’s fiction.
“There’s links golf, then everything else.”

Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2022, 07:47:54 PM »
It might help to know how each of the two parties were paid, what the contractual arrangements were and for what duties and responsibilities, and who was an employee of which party involved. 


I had a Major Professor in grad school who often added his name to any papers his students wrote.There was a joke that he had two stamps.  One was Major Professor and .......  The other was .........and Major Professor.  Undergrad lab assistants generally were not included.  The standard for inclusion had to do with intellectual content and expertise in the area.


Unless Duncan Andrews were to disavow the statements attributed to him or specify the AUSGOLF version from 2015 is incorrect, it seems realistic to accept what was attributed in these accounts.  Of course, he might have made other comments in other settings.


I've had communication with AUSGOLF since before my first trip to Australia in 2007.  At that time, they had a user friendly website that covered Australia public golf very well.  They have kept it running for many years.  I found it very helpful and my experience with a first trip that involved some very good public courses and three private courses led me to go back to Australia on 15 more trips.  One of the public courses was the first course I played and was developed by Duncan Andrews.  Whatever transpired at Cape Wickham occurred as his project.


Charles Lund


« Last Edit: January 14, 2022, 04:46:35 AM by Charles Lund »

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2022, 12:03:13 AM »
Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


I think it would be appropriate to call either of them "architect (or designer) of the renowned Oakmont CC/Pine Valley CC.  Maybe I'm applying a definition to "renowned" that oversells it a bit.  But here's another angle on your question, Ken.  I have not been to Bandon, but the consensus from people I've talked to seems to be that the original course is typically their least favorite on the property.  Was DMK "renowned" after Bandon Dunes?  Would he be "renowned" if he hadn't somewhat resurrected his post Castle Course career with Gamble Sands and Mammoth Dunes, etc.?  I think a particular property can be renowned, but I would submit that it takes a larger body of work for an artist/author/architect to gain that distinction.  But eye of the beholder and all that.


Interesting. I don't know a single person who lists the original Bandon course as their least favorite. And I probably know 50 guys who have played all the courses.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2022, 01:05:09 AM »
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Tim Weiman

David Ober

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2022, 01:35:00 AM »
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.


Well now I know one! ;-)

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2022, 02:03:53 AM »
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

David_Elvins

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #70 on: January 14, 2022, 02:48:56 PM »
Well now I know one! ;-)


Comfortably my least favorite too, fwiw.


I may reassess when I play it more but it seemed a bit amateurish in places.
Ask not what GolfClubAtlas can do for you; ask what you can do for GolfClubAtlas.

Kyle Harris

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #71 on: January 14, 2022, 05:10:48 PM »
Let me ask this question.

George Crump has been credited for his vision in producing one of the greatest golf courses in the world.  He's listed with Henry Colt as the primary designers (of course we all know more people were involved in varying degrees).

Henry Fownes is credited with designing one course but it's a highly thought of course.

Let's move aside Crump's death prior to the course being completed.  Had he lived and given the success and immediate acclaim Pine Valley received and given what Fownes accomplished at Oakmont, would it be appropriate for either to have claimed themselves as a "renowned golf course architect?"

Ken


George Crump did other golf courses…
http://kylewharris.com

Constantly blamed by 8-handicaps for their 7 missed 12-footers each round.

Thank you for changing the font of your posts. It makes them easier to scroll past.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #72 on: January 14, 2022, 09:29:24 PM »
David,


I have only played three Bandon courses, including the original, Pacific and Old Mac. The original was definitely my least favorite and by a wide margin. Just didn’t find it appealing at all.
Hi Tim,When comparing precious gems it is easy to look at the least of them and say it is my least favorite gem. However, it is still a gem nonetheless. Are you saying it isn't a great course in your view?  Or just that it is the least favorite of the Bandon courses, but still worthy of 4 hours of your time whenever given the chance?
On LI I could say of Shinny, NGLA and Maidstone that Maidstone (OMG terrible example huh?  ;D ) is my least favorite. Wow hard to say that Maidstone is in any way my least of anything. However, it is still a great course and one of the top 50 courses in the world.

Just wanted to give BD it's due respect perhaps here.


The only problems with this explanation are
1) Maidstone is not, actually, rated in the top 50 courses in the world - or even the top 100, I think?, and
2) Maidstone is better than Bandon Dunes.  :D

Kalen Braley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2022, 09:37:55 PM »
According to the new Golf Mag ratings its #56...

https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-courses-world-ranking-2021-2022/




Charles Lund

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Shots Fired - Who designed Cape Wickham
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2022, 12:00:43 AM »
Actually Cape Wickham was #70 on the link Kalen provided.  Article notes as Architect Mike DeVries with Darius Oliver. 

Sorry, I thought reference was to Cape Wickham.  Maidstone was #56.

Charles Lund
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 02:28:02 AM by Charles Lund »