[Sean_A]

I'm a bit confused by the comments that he didn't provide details.  I re-read the article and found the following:

• Claimed to find 1st and 18th hole
• Made changes to 4, 5, and 17 greens
• Changed the 5th fairway
• Redid last 1/3rd of 6th hole
• Added fairway bunker on 2
• Rebuilt greenside bunkers on 1
• Built bold greens with 6, 10, 12 and 17 greens
• Tame greens for 5, 13, and 15
• Softened large dunes on 18 and avoided going flashy

I don't know how this fits into the larger picture of roles on a crew, and attributions, but those look to be fairly specific.  Additionally, given this is an article on his site, not a mutli-page report I suspect he never intended to go into all the nitty gritties.

P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph:

I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.

I don't read MDV's site to exclude others from design credit. He simply doesn't mention others. It's the same style of info for the other original designs that I looked at. What others write isn't at issue...MDV has no control over that. So no, I don't know the exact beef because at best I have only read a vague, one sided account.

Ciao

[Daryl David]

P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph
I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.

I understand his issue. Although I’m not sure if the post on his website was the best action to take. From the opening of CW until recently, Darius has been listed as co-designer. Lots of articles in the early days state that. Sites that list courses and designers have it that way. When I spent a day there with Duncan Andrews before the course opened, he mentioned many times that the course was co-designed by Darius and Mike.  Things have obviously drifted from that narrative since Duncan exited the project and it was sold. The new owners might have something to do with that.  Not a great situation. One you wish could be settled satisfactorily in private.

[Niall C]

P.S.  I thought his beef was fairly clear in the last paragraph
I never wanted to write this story, but a number of Australian and American publications have recently decided to credit Cape Wickham as a solo Mike DeVries design. As have DeVries’s own business partners. His corporate website also listed the course for two years as being his solo creation.

I understand his issue. Although I’m not sure if the post on his website was the best action to take. From the opening of CW until recently, Darius has been listed as co-designer. Lots of articles in the early days state that. Sites that list courses and designers have it that way. When I spent a day there with Duncan Andrews before the course opened, he mentioned many times that the course was co-designed by Darius and Mike.  Things have obviously drifted from that narrative since Duncan exited the project and it was sold. The new owners might have something to do with that.  Not a great situation. One you wish could be settled satisfactorily in private.

Daryl

Perhaps I misread the article as I thought it said that Mike was credited with the design ?

Niall

[Colin Sheehan]

Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.

[Jeff Schley]

Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.

Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.

[Kalen Braley]

Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.

Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.

Jeff

I would disagree with your last statement.  In any type of organized group whether it be political, religious, corporate, etc...it can be quite effective.  I've seen it up close in 2 places I worked at, and it was Trumps winning strategy to become POTUS.

However, getting back to the issue, while I certainly agree that going public wasn't the best way to deal with it, he did have positives of Mike in the article:

1) That he personally recommended MDV for the job after seeing Kingsley
2)  Complimented him on his work ethic and passion for building courses
3) He credits MDVs role in the routing.
4)  He claims to have deferred to Mike in building a couple of green sketches he sent over
5)  Implicitly gives Mike credit for putting ego aside and returning to the project to assist in its completion.
6) Validated his name recognition and brand.

Of course he had negative things to say too, but wouldn't we agree that being able to identify the pros and cons to any situation is at least the sign of an objective approach?

[Jeff Schley]

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.

Jeff

I would disagree with your last statement.  In any type of organized group whether it be political, religious, corporate, etc...it can be quite effective.  I've seen it up close in 2 places I worked at, and it was Trumps winning strategy to become POTUS.


Kalen,
I can see your view, although it depends on if you are willing to sacrifice your reputation in doing so by it being an individual against another. Politics in debates I don't see as reality myself.
 If all one is after is getting a reaction from a mob, then yes it can be quite effective to pick on others with the intention of glorifying yourself. However, for personal attacks as a former teacher of mine said (not my quote), "you don't get any taller by cutting others down."
I don't think this is anything but obvious, but if you want to be respected by those you respect actions speak louder than words. I guess to finish off these proverbs, is if someone tells you how good they are at something, they probably aren't.

[Kalen Braley]

Jeff,

I would agree with that sentiment as it applies specifically to respect.  However, the problem with respect is its difficult to measure.  When evaluating these kinds of tactics, I look at it more in terms of what was gained from using them?  So looking at the net accrual whether it be in the form of a notable position, power, increased opportunities/access, compensation, benefits, etc., that's a bit more tangible.

But once again, going back to this scenario...

If I was going to speculate, I'm guessing he wanted to leverage the success of Cape Wickam into other projects in the form of doing lead design/architect kind of work.  And he probably ran into a bit of blowback and obstacles from other potential developers who were under the assumption that Cape Wickam was MDV's work.  And whether its true or not, its almost always perception one has to deal with in reality.  So perhaps he was just trying to set the record straight in a public forum for future work and opportunities, not necessarily for those who were already familiar with the project.

[Peter Pallotta]

Edit - unnecessary.

[Greg Gilson]

Its a pity this messy spat could not have been resolved behind closed doors. As noted above, the timing is presumably tied to recent progress with Andrew Purchase' & DO's slow moving course project at Kangaroo (not King) Island & their perceived need to leverage DO's role at (whatever that was) & reputation from CW. Apart from what's already mentioned above, 2 points from DO's longer post that really grab my attention are:


(1)ON CW's website MDV is listed as "COURSE ARCHITECT" & DO as "COURSE DESIGNER". I am sure those titles were not chosen accidentally. Whats the difference? Is there some special qualification required for 1 not the other? Is it because of a contractual requirement to only list MDV as "Course Architect"? Is this kind of terminology used elsewhere on other projects where the "lead architect" has his job finished or heavily supplemented by another party?


(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!

Anyway, the sad thing is that its a wonderful course in a dramatic location & its a testament to everyone who took a chance & contributed. Its reputation , and the reputations of those involved, is not being helped by this squabble.

[Bill Seitz]

(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!

I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but as much as I like Mike personally and professionally (I'm a Kingsley member and he designed my favorite course), I wouldn't have considered him a real needle mover when it comes to marketing a course in the United States, let alone one on a remote outpost on the other side of the world.  Outside of the real hardcore golf geeks, does any name besides Fazio, Nicklaus, Hanse, Doak, and Coore/Crenshaw really drive interest?  I'm a rater and I've played with raters that have never heard of Mike's pre-CW flagship design.  Doesn't really add up for me.  Also not really sure why they would need an American architect to really drive ratings.   Certainly opening Bandon without an American architect has been a complete disaster for Mike Keiser. 


Those aren't the only things that don't make sense.  If you're trying to build a links style golf course, wouldn't hiring someone who "understands the nuances of links golf" be one of the most important things to suss out during the interview process?  Given the current projects underway in that part of the world, this is an incredibly self-serving article. 

[Tim_Weiman]

Maybe Darius needed to make such a post after the recent press releases/article from early December.


https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/pelligra-tees-up-50m-for-kangaroo-island-recovery-1110363/


The $20 million links-style golf course, designed by renowned golf course architect Darius Oliver, will be built on a spectacular 240-hectare clifftop site overlooking the Southern Ocean at Pelican Lagoon, on the eastern side of the island.


Although an original proposal for a “destination” golf course was approved in 2016, Mr Atkins recruited Mr Oliver, designer of the renowned Cape Wickham Links project on Tasmania’s King Island, to revise the plans and create a golf course that could compete with the very best golf courses in Australia.

Good research Colin.  Now does MDV need to post an article to counter Darius's claim that Darius was the sole designer? I certainly doubt it and think MDV is doing just fine up in Michigan to worry about the sour grapes of a former colleague down under.

 I don't see why Darius needs to build himself up by tearing others down, which was a theme of his article. It doesn't work that way in life.

Wow. So now Darius is a “renowned golf course architect”.


Quite a promotion.

[Greg Gilson]

Tim, i agree with you that DO's reputation needed cosmetic surgery to support the Kangaroo Island promotional material.

Bill, I also agree with your logic but, as DO's post argues, it was the overseas raters they were aiming to hoodwink:

" Despite things not working out with Mike on King Island, we all felt that the course needed an American name for the overseas raters to take seriously. I’m not sure the American raters would have been so quick to rush to a tiny island down under had they known who actually designed it."

Now that i re-read DO's words again i actually get more disappointed. I don't know whether i am crankier that they are trying to steal MDV's design credit .....or that they used his name to attach to a course that they really don't believe he actually designed...or both.

[Niall C]

"Mike DeVries was able to return to King Island for a week in mid-2014 and actually get back on a machine to shape part of the 16th hole. I think he was impressed with the work we had done, but perhaps still hurt that he hadn’t been able to see the project through to completion. I believe he owes Duncan Andrews a huge debt of gratitude, for protecting his reputation and keeping his name associated with such an incredible golf course."

I wonder whether Mike believes he owes a "huge debt of gratitude" ? This passage also begs the question, why was Mike asked back ? (I'm assuming he was asked rather than him doing the "asking"). If he "struggled with the nuances of true links golf and the concept of a collaborative approach" then why would you ask him back to be part of the team and undertake some shaping ? Seems bizarre to me.


Niall

[John Mayhugh]

Basically, Darius Oliver is saying that "we were lying to you before about who designed Cape Wickham, but now you should believe me." I've no idea how the design/build process went, but this certainly hasn't enhanced Mr. Oliver's reputation with me.

On his Planet Golf website, Oliver also describes himself as having "unsurpassed expertise in the area of golf course design." This suggests a willingness to exaggerate.

[Mark Smolens]

(2)My interpretation of DO's post is that the owners stuck with MDV's name as architect (even though , in DO's mind, they knew DO did the bulk of the heavy lifting) as a marketing tool. The feeling was that MDV's name would build reputation, traffic & ratings. Thats probably right, of course. However, if the owners (& DO) chose that path even though they believed different, is it not false advertising? Is that strategy any different to building your own course & just paying Jack Nicklaus a bundle of money to put his name to it so as to build reputation, traffic & ratings? If its not really a MDV course then i personally feel a little but hoodwinked!

William, you need to get some rest. . . edit posts at 1;30 in the morning?? Who do you think you are, Tom Doak?

I don't disagree with anything you wrote, but as much as I like Mike personally and professionally (I'm a Kingsley member and he designed my favorite course), I wouldn't have considered him a real needle mover when it comes to marketing a course in the United States, let alone one on a remote outpost on the other side of the world.  Outside of the real hardcore golf geeks, does any name besides Fazio, Nicklaus, Hanse, Doak, and Coore/Crenshaw really drive interest?  I'm a rater and I've played with raters that have never heard of Mike's pre-CW flagship design.  Doesn't really add up for me.  Also not really sure why they would need an American architect to really drive ratings.   Certainly opening Bandon without an American architect has been a complete disaster for Mike Keiser. 


Those aren't the only things that don't make sense.  If you're trying to build a links style golf course, wouldn't hiring someone who "understands the nuances of links golf" be one of the most important things to suss out during the interview process?  Given the current projects underway in that part of the world, this is an incredibly self-serving article.

[Bill Seitz]

William, you need to get some rest. . . edit posts at 1;30 in the morning?? Who do you think you are, Tom Doak?

Smols, I've got 3 year old and 6 month old, both of whom decided they'd rather not sleep last night.  Gotta do something to pass the time between calm-down sessions. 

[Bill Seitz]

Basically, Darius Oliver is saying that "we were lying to you before about who designed Cape Wickham, but now you should believe me." I've no idea how the design/build process went, but this certainly hasn't enhanced Mr. Oliver's reputation with me.

And by implication, he's also saying Mike has been lying to everyone (with their permission, of course) since the course opened.  I certainly haven't heard every interview he's done, but I've read/listened to a fair amount, and I can't recall one in which Mike said the project didn't go well and he was fired, which is what Darius alleges here. 

[Charles Lund]

The link below from 2015 and 2016 characterizes the development in a  more contemporaneous review. 


https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review

Also, the course has been under new ownership for a few years, after Duncan Andrews sold it to a group located in Vietnam, as I understand it.

Charles Lund

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

All I can say on this issue is the following.
When I played CW, prior to its opening and had the company of Mr Andrews for a couple of days, including dinner, there was no mention of the development as Darius suggests.
It was clear from what Mr Andrews was telling me this was a collaboration and that both men made significant contributions to the project.
One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.


MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.


I personally think this was one of the best aspects of the course routing and design, as holes 5-9 to me are some of the best on the course and when one does return with that over the hill view on 10 to get smashed in the face again with the beauty of the site.


Just my ten cents worth

[Tim_Weiman]

All I can say on this issue is the following.
When I played CW, prior to its opening and had the company of Mr Andrews for a couple of days, including dinner, there was no mention of the development as Darius suggests.
It was clear from what Mr Andrews was telling me this was a collaboration and that both men made significant contributions to the project.
One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.


MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.


I personally think this was one of the best aspects of the course routing and design, as holes 5-9 to me are some of the best on the course and when one does return with that over the hill view on 10 to get smashed in the face again with the beauty of the site.


Just my ten cents worth

Michael,


Thanks for your account of dinner with Mr. Andrews and perspective on Mike DeVries’ views on the routing for Cape Wickham.


While I haven’t seen Cape Wickham, by your account MDV did raise an interesting issue for students of golf architecture: how to balance eye candy with interesting golf holes, particularly at seaside courses.


In years past, we debated the merits of the inland holes at Pebble Beach vs the obvious stars along the ocean. I was among those who believed some of the inland holes were ok, but not that great.


By comparison, I never felt let down by the inland holes at nearby Cypress Point.


It is unfortunate Darius took discussion of Cape Wickham in a personal direction rather than an opportunity to discuss an important golf architecture topic: the routing for seaside or waterfront courses.


Thanks again for your post.

[Tom_Doak]

The link below from 2015 and 2016 characterizes the development in a  more contemporaneous review. 

https://www.ausgolf.com.au/guide/club/CapeWickhamLinks/review

Also, the course has been under new ownership for a few years, after Duncan Andrews sold it to a group located in Vietnam, as I understand it.

Well, that contemporaneous account might also be a little biased, as Darius used to be a partner in the firm that wrote the review, and they were certainly more likely to print what he told them.  They even said as much in the first two paragraphs!


Indeed, for most newspaper and magazine accounts today, you can assume that they are printing whatever their host wanted them to say.  It's the way of the world nowadays.  There are several other examples just in this thread.


The only semi-neutral person you could ask about it is Duncan Andrews, who told me himself that he funded the project because he wanted to see it happen, but that he would turn around and sell it as soon as it was ranked and before it had a financial history to drag down the price.     So, I'm not sure I would believe everything he said, either!


I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years, so they've done next to no business during COVID.  The new owners of Cape Wickham have very deep pockets, so there's no fear of it going bankrupt, but it's far removed from the rest of their business interests and I'm not sure if they understand the place or even HAVE a long-term business model for it.

[Tom_Doak]

One thing I will always remember is Mr Andrews stressing that MDV wanted to move away from the coastline as the current routing does, so that thegolfer did not become overwhelmed with nothing but the beauty of the site.

MDV felt it important to have well designed holes away from the breathtaking shoreline to give the course more credibility.

Unless you're building on a small island or a narrow peninsula, pretty much half the holes on an oceanfront site are going to have to be away from the sea.  You've got to get back to where you started, and the other holes are blocking you off from the sea. 


Almost always, the holes that are along the ocean are going to be the slam-dunk favorites, as at Pebble Beach, so the goal will always be to find some holes further inland that are judged to be as good as the oceanfront holes.  Of course, having really good contour and movement in those areas is a huge leg up, and is what separates the "10" site from the 8 or 9.


But of course, exactly HOW you do it and WHEN you do it has a big impact on how the course feels.  The one "formula" for that I prefer to avoid is the modern preference for two opposite loops of nine holes, with the finishing holes for each nine on the water, a la Teeth of the Dog or Barnbougle.  For me, that's just too predictable, and I will lose interest unless the inland terrain is as good as the 4th and 11th-13th at Barnbougle.  Ideally, I'd rather get to the water somewhere near the start, and then return unpredictably after that, but it's not so easy to sort out the best way to do that.  ["Routing" two of the oceanfront holes is a lot easier when you don't have to close the loop.  ]

[David_Elvins]

I just hope the place is hanging in there -- and Ocean Dunes, as well.  King Island has been under quarantine with the rest of Tasmania for much of the last two years,

That is a wild over exaggeration.  Tasmanian border restrictions have mainly been outside their golf season when the course is shut every year anyway  Not saying it hasn't affected their golf business and lack of international tourists hurts but Apart from a few weeks here and there of localised restrictions, Australians were going to tassie for golf from Dec to May every  year.

[Scott Warren]

Not quite, David. Tasmania has had restrictions in place for people from NSW for much of the past two years. A good mate of mine moved to Hobart in 2019 and I've had to abandon three trips to see him because of interstate quarantine requirements.


This, for example, was from last December:


https://www.premier.tas.gov.au/site_resources_2015/additional_releases/update_on_nsw_border_restrictions

19 December 2020Peter Gutwein, Premier
Update on NSW border restrictions
The health and safety of Tasmanians remains our number one priority as we continue to deal with the coronavirus pandemic.

In response to the escalating situation in New South Wales, the Greater Sydney area will be classified as a medium-risk jurisdiction by the Director of Public Health, effective from midnight tonight.

The Northern Beaches area within the Greater Sydney footprint will remain as a high-risk area.

This means that from midnight tonight, anyone who travels to Tasmania from the Greater Sydney area will have to quarantine for 14 days from arrival in Tasmania. As the Northern Beaches area remains high-risk, only Tasmanians returning home can come to Tasmania from this area and they will be required to quarantine for 14 days as well.

Quarantine can be undertaken at a suitable residence, or for those without a residence, at a Government quarantine hotel at your own expense.

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