How the wind can make a really good hole or course not nearly as good.

[William_G]

no wind, no golf
[size=78%]really good design must consider wind[/size]
[size=78%]the question asked is moot[/size]
yet all golfers are not equal so theres that

like TD said, how about snow making a great course not nearly as great for 50% of the time, LOL

[Jerry Kluger]

Of course a good design takes into account the wind and that of course means the prevailing wind.  What happens when the wind turns in the opposite direction which often happens in the winter versus the summer, is it possible that a course will be just as good in that circumstance - I think not.  And there usually isn't much that can be done about it.  TD had told me that the wind would be completely opposite in summer versus winter and he had to design the courses at Bandon with consideration given to the wind during the warmer times of the year when the courses would be played the most. So there does not seem to be much of an argument that when the wind blows opposite from the prevailing winds that it is not going to be as good.

[Mark_Fine]

So is wind part of the architecture or simply no different then the condition of the course on any given day?  We have had an infinite number of debates on this site about what is or isn’t part of the design?  Some say what is outside the boundaries of the course is not part of the architecture?  I have always begged to differ.  I happen to think backdrops are part of the design and can impact the quality of a golf hole/course.  And what about rain?  Does rain make a great hole better or worse.  There are some courses where it rains most of the time.  Did the architect take that into consideration?  What about the rising and setting sun.  That can dramatically impact how a hole plays and subsequently its greatness.  I remember playing Interlachen in MN, an old Ross design and couldn’t see the last hole at all as it was routed direct into the setting sun.  I didn’t think that hole was great (not at that time of the day). 

[Joe Hancock]

So is wind part of the architecture or simply no different then the condition of the course on any given day?  We have had an infinite number of debates on this site about what is or isn’t part of the design?  Some say what is outside the boundaries of the course is not part of the architecture?  I have always begged to differ.  I happen to think backdrops are part of the design and can impact the quality of a golf hole/course.  And what about rain?  Does rain make a great hole better or worse.  There are some courses where it rains most of the time.  Did the architect take that into consideration?  What about the rising and setting sun.  That can dramatically impact how a hole plays and subsequently its greatness.  I remember playing Interlachen in MN, an old Ross design and couldn’t see the last hole at all as it was routed direct into the setting sun.  I didn’t think that hole was great (not at that time of the day). 

Would you live in an oceanside highrise if you knew the architect didn’t engineer for wind load? The best architects account for all reasonable situations that are likely to factor in to the playing of the course while understanding there will be rare circumstances beyond anyones control.

[Sean_A]

Of course a good design takes into account the wind and that of course means the prevailing wind.  What happens when the wind turns in the opposite direction which often happens in the winter versus the summer, is it possible that a course will be just as good in that circumstance - I think not.  And there usually isn't much that can be done about it.  TD had told me that the wind would be completely opposite in summer versus winter and he had to design the courses at Bandon with consideration given to the wind during the warmer times of the year when the courses would be played the most. So there does not seem to be much of an argument that when the wind blows opposite from the prevailing winds that it is not going to be as good.

Thankfully there are exceptions to every rule. A think Deal is better in a contrary wind. Burnham may be as well.

Happy New Year

[Mark_Fine]

So Joe is wind part of the design/architecture?

[Joe Hancock]

So Joe is wind part of the design/architecture?

Yes.

[Mark_Fine]

Joe,
We agree on the wind.


We all know how important the routing is to a great hole.  Obviously the routing takes into account the prevailing wind.  Doesn’t the routing also take into account the surrounds off the properly and the “prevailing” backdrops    ?  So are they part of the design/architecture too?

[Joe Hancock]

Joe,
We agree on the wind.


We all know how important the routing is to a great hole.  Obviously the routing takes into account the prevailing wind.  Doesn’t the routing also take into account the surrounds off the properly and the “prevailing” backdrops    ?  So are they part of the design/architecture too?

Wind affects the flight of a ball AND plays a psychological role in the players ability to execute shots.


Backdrops and surrounds don’t affect the flight of the ball, but MAY play a psychological role in a players ability to execute shots.


They aren’t the same thing, but both demand the architects attention in how they factor into the way the course is played.

[Thomas Dai]

Backdrops and surrounds don’t affect the flight of the ball, but MAY play a psychological role in a players ability to execute shots.

Surely surrounding terrain, backdrops etc do have an effect on ball flight .... updrafts, downdrafts, eddy's, sheltered spots?
atb

[Jeff Schley]

I view wind similar to elevation, it needs to be factored into the design as both directly affect the flight of the ball; thus how the course is played.

[Joe Hancock]

Backdrops and surrounds don’t affect the flight of the ball, but MAY play a psychological role in a players ability to execute shots.

Surely surrounding terrain, backdrops etc do have an effect on ball flight .... updrafts, downdrafts, eddy's, sheltered spots?
atb

In that context, yes. I wasn’t applying Mark Fine’s question to those situations, I probably assumed poorly that he meant long views and scenery.

[Jonathan Cummings]

7th at Barnbougle Dunes is a wonderful short par 3 into the wind.  Downwind I'm not sure how it can be played.  Could say the same about 10 at Royal Dornoch, particularly with a front pin.

That’s why we built all that fairway to the right on 7 at Barnbougle.


Many famous par-3 holes fall apart in a strong tailwind.  I have played 17th at Sand Hills when there was pretty much nothing to do but hit it in a bunker, because you couldn’t hold the green.

Not sure I wouldn't take a downwind 17th at SH as that would mean those bears at 15, 16 and 18 would also be downwind.  Into the wind all three can be unreachable.

[Niall C]

Backdrops and surrounds don’t affect the flight of the ball, but MAY play a psychological role in a players ability to execute shots.

Surely surrounding terrain, backdrops etc do have an effect on ball flight .... updrafts, downdrafts, eddy's, sheltered spots?
atb

I recall the last time the Open was down at Troon and Sky were doing the TV coverage. They had 5 or 6 spots round the course where they were measuring the strength and direction of the wind. I loved looking at the graphic as it showed variation in speed and direction at each location all at the same moment in time. In the context of UK links designing purely for a particular wind direction is a fools errand IMO.


Niall