[Anthony Gray]

 North Berwick is Loaded with exceptional holes.


 If I listed the holes in order of the ones I liked the best The Redan would not make my top 9.


Break out the Thesaurus.


 I think the first is @%^* than The Redan. Defiantly the 17th. The 18th is a <>?: finishing hole. I’m taking The Pit over The Redan. The second is more #!1% compared to The Redan. The 3rd is all wows. I like the 4th more. The Redan is not my favorite par 3. And there is the stunner of the green at 16.


 If a gentleman golfer did not know the history of the Redan, would it be on their top 9 holes at NB?


 In a head to head of holes where does it finish? Oops can a par 3 be compared to a par 5 in a head to head? Yes if you are evaluating them on a (%3 scale.


 


 

[Sean_A]

Not really thought about it before. Off the top of my head I prefer 2, 13, 16 and possibly 18. So I guess that makes Redan my 4th or 5th favourite hole at NB.


Ciao

[Tim Gallant]

I'd say it's the best par 3 on the course, though I love the variety of the other 3 as well. I would say the 15th, like every hole from 13-18, is a half-par hole, where 3 will likely win the hole in a match more often than not. It's tough to isolate individual holes on the course as the sum is just as important as the parts and the ebb and flow makes it so special. After birdie chances at 13 and 14 (provided you've hit good shots), then 15, 16 and 17 is a tough stretch, before redemption at 18.


Curious on your rationale for why you don't have it in the top 9 holes? From a variety perspective, I can't think of many par-3s in the world that ask so many questions and play so different depending on ground firmness and wind. It may just be that you have a high opinion of the other holes, and you likely won't get many arguing with you about any hole on the back-9.

[Anthony Gray]

I'd say it's the best par 3 on the course, though I love the variety of the other 3 as well. I would say the 15th, like every hole from 13-18, is a half-par hole, where 3 will likely win the hole in a match more often than not. It's tough to isolate individual holes on the course as the sum is just as important as the parts and the ebb and flow makes it so special. After birdie chances at 13 and 14 (provided you've hit good shots), then 15, 16 and 17 is a tough stretch, before redemption at 18.


Curious on your rationale for why you don't have it in the top 9 holes? From a variety perspective, I can't think of many par-3s in the world that ask so many questions and play so different depending on ground firmness and wind. It may just be that you have a high opinion of the other holes, and you likely won't get many arguing with you about any hole on the back-9.

 It’s tuff on a left to right hitter and with a longer club difficult to hold the green. So there is the “fairness “ issue. At times the best play is to play it off the next tee box. I think the other holes are more memorable. You make an excellent point of half par. Some in the golfers favor and some in the course’s favor. And the bold features the other holes have to offer. And maybe if it was a reverse Redan I would appreciate the architecture more.

[Tim Gallant]

I'd say it's the best par 3 on the course, though I love the variety of the other 3 as well. I would say the 15th, like every hole from 13-18, is a half-par hole, where 3 will likely win the hole in a match more often than not. It's tough to isolate individual holes on the course as the sum is just as important as the parts and the ebb and flow makes it so special. After birdie chances at 13 and 14 (provided you've hit good shots), then 15, 16 and 17 is a tough stretch, before redemption at 18.


Curious on your rationale for why you don't have it in the top 9 holes? From a variety perspective, I can't think of many par-3s in the world that ask so many questions and play so different depending on ground firmness and wind. It may just be that you have a high opinion of the other holes, and you likely won't get many arguing with you about any hole on the back-9.

 It’s tuff on a left to right hitter and with a longer club difficult to hold the green. So there is the “fairness “ issue. At times the best play is to play it off the next tee box. I think the other holes are more memorable. You make an excellent point of half par. Some in the golfers favor and some in the course’s favor. And the bold features the other holes have to offer. And maybe if it was a reverse Redan I would appreciate the architecture more.

As a fellow L to R-er, I feel your pain! Try aiming at the very left of the green and take an extra club next time you play it. There's actually a shoulder that will bounce balls right, and if you go long the back of the green is a great spot to be - playing back up to slope. Just don't be short if you're taking that line

[Anthony Gray]

I'd say it's the best par 3 on the course, though I love the variety of the other 3 as well. I would say the 15th, like every hole from 13-18, is a half-par hole, where 3 will likely win the hole in a match more often than not. It's tough to isolate individual holes on the course as the sum is just as important as the parts and the ebb and flow makes it so special. After birdie chances at 13 and 14 (provided you've hit good shots), then 15, 16 and 17 is a tough stretch, before redemption at 18.


Curious on your rationale for why you don't have it in the top 9 holes? From a variety perspective, I can't think of many par-3s in the world that ask so many questions and play so different depending on ground firmness and wind. It may just be that you have a high opinion of the other holes, and you likely won't get many arguing with you about any hole on the back-9.

 It’s tuff on a left to right hitter and with a longer club difficult to hold the green. So there is the “fairness “ issue. At times the best play is to play it off the next tee box. I think the other holes are more memorable. You make an excellent point of half par. Some in the golfers favor and some in the course’s favor. And the bold features the other holes have to offer. And maybe if it was a reverse Redan I would appreciate the architecture more.

As a fellow L to R-er, I feel your pain! Try aiming at the very left of the green and take an extra club next time you play it. There's actually a shoulder that will bounce balls right, and if you go long the back of the green is a great spot to be - playing back up to slope. Just don't be short if you're taking that line

 That is exactly how [size=78%]I played it. And went long and putted from the next tee box. You can’t play a cut and have a chance with a longer club. I’m going to 3/4  with a five wood and watch it go over the back of the green. Try an up and down with a putter. Which is ok but a reverse Redan is more -leasing to me. I got that shot. [/size]
[/size]
[/size]

[Kalen Braley]

Anthony,

In case you ever need a refresher, this youtube video is about the best one I've found.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYu_lEERUIU

Its certainly at the top of my wish list when/if I make it to that side of that pond..

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think its only the 'history' that makes it stand out.


The structure of a Redan green I think only about 1% of golfers like and 99% hate, it's just one of those things you have to like to be a rater and be part of the club.


As holes I prefer 1, 2, 3, 4, 13, 14, 16.


11, 12 and 18 probably equal.


I think 17 is a bit naff. Some lovely bits about the hole but that shot into the green is too much of a lottery.

[Ira Fishman]

Adrian,


I am not a rater nor part of the club and certainly not in the 1% in understanding gca. But I disagree with you about the redan green complex. The first one I remember playing was Old White 8 perhaps a dozen years ago. I knew zero about it or templates generally. I thought it was such a cool hole. Since then I have played a few more: Old Mac (not very good); PD (excellent); Somerset Hills (one of greatest holes I have had the privilege of playing).


And NB (2x). It is a wonderful hole if only for the uncertainty/anticipation of where your tee shot ended up residing. However, I agree that it is not the best hole at NB. I would place 2, 9, 12, 13, 14, and 17 above it. The fact that nearly every hole at NB has been cited in less than 10 posts certainly says something.


Ira

[Mark_Fine]

Come on Anthony, don't use the "fairness" card just because the hole demands (or prefers) a certain shape shot.  When the wind is blowing a different direction, that high soft fade can work wonders on that hole.  If you learn anything on this site, learn that fairness is not a word that should be used to describe GCA.


As far as that particular hole goes, yes it is very historic as many believe it is the most copied hole in the world (at least the design concept is copied).  Whether that is true or not, who knows.  There are many versions of it that are better than the original (Ira pointed out what I think might be the best of all which is the 2nd at Somerset Hills).  There again, the hole doesn't normally call for a high fade but when the wind is blowing in your face from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock the high fade can be an ideal play.


As for the comments about the "raters", these guys are a bunch of golfers just like any of us.  They (some) play a lot of courses but they really aren't much different than any of us.  No magazine tells any of their "raters" that they should love the 15th hole at North Berwick.  It is not my favorite on the course but as a rater, it is helpful to know the history of any course you are playing.  How much you let what you have learned influence your opinion is another matter as rating courses is completely subjective.  If it were objective, there would be no need for raters and the perfect Top 100 list would never be argued. 


So to answer your question, no I don't think it is the best hole at North Berwick and I am not sure which one is.  I just love the whole composition.  It is a do not miss play if you are anywhere in the area. 

[Ronald Montesano]

First knock-off I ever played was the 6th at Fox Chapel. It's a reverse, and I hit the shot perfectly, and watched it trace.


Next one I played was 17 at Pacific Dunes. Loved it.


Next one I played was the 13th at Yale. Kick plate missing, hated it. Looks pretty, but doesn't work.


Next one I played was the 4th at NGLA. Missed ace by two inches. Loved it.


Last one I played was the 12th at Old Mac. Couldn't visualize the kick plate, so I couldn't really play it properly.

I've photographed the faux at Shinnecock, the best kick plate in the coterie at Camargo, and the awesome, downhill reverse at Sleepy Hollow.


I can't wait to see the original. I hope that there are ten holes on property that are better, as I love a good redan. Also can't wait to play the Redan at Lido some day.

[mike_malone]

I love 13 but it’s tough as a template. The Redan is special in my mind.

[Anthony Gray]

Come on Anthony, don't use the "fairness" card just because the hole demands (or prefers) a certain shape shot.  When the wind is blowing a different direction, that high soft fade can work wonders on that hole.  If you learn anything on this site, learn that fairness is not a word that should be used to describe GCA.


As far as that particular hole goes, yes it is very historic as many believe it is the most copied hole in the world (at least the design concept is copied).  Whether that is true or not, who knows.  There are many versions of it that are better than the original (Ira pointed out what I think might be the best of all which is the 2nd at Somerset Hills).  There again, the hole doesn't normally call for a high fade but when the wind is blowing in your face from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock the high fade can be an ideal play.


As for the comments about the "raters", these guys are a bunch of golfers just like any of us.  They (some) play a lot of courses but they really aren't much different than any of us.  No magazine tells any of their "raters" that they should love the 15th hole at North Berwick.  It is not my favorite on the course but as a rater, it is helpful to know the history of any course you are playing.  How much you let what you have learned influence your opinion is another matter as rating courses is completely subjective.  If it were objective, there would be no need for raters and the perfect Top 100 list would never be argued. 


So to answer your question, no I don't think it is the best hole at North Berwick and I am not sure which one is.  I just love the whole composition.  It is a do not miss play if you are anywhere in the area.

 Nice post Mark. It’s not unfair but not truly fair. But that’s golf. Dogleg lefts  dogleg rights. But it may be the most copied hole in all of golf. And it may not be in the top 7 of best holes at its home.

[jeffwarne]

There are many redans where a fade can work rather nicely.
And at Shinnecock number 7 it's often the only shot that works.
Seems to me the best shot on a green sloped right to left and away from you, and could soften the blow off a kicker plate.
But I generally don't attempt the shot other than at Shinny as my preferred shot is a draw.

[Sean_A]

Come on Anthony, don't use the "fairness" card just because the hole demands (or prefers) a certain shape shot.  When the wind is blowing a different direction, that high soft fade can work wonders on that hole.  If you learn anything on this site, learn that fairness is not a word that should be used to describe GCA.


As far as that particular hole goes, yes it is very historic as many believe it is the most copied hole in the world (at least the design concept is copied).  Whether that is true or not, who knows.  There are many versions of it that are better than the original (Ira pointed out what I think might be the best of all which is the 2nd at Somerset Hills).  There again, the hole doesn't normally call for a high fade but when the wind is blowing in your face from 2 o'clock to 8 o'clock the high fade can be an ideal play.


As for the comments about the "raters", these guys are a bunch of golfers just like any of us.  They (some) play a lot of courses but they really aren't much different than any of us.  No magazine tells any of their "raters" that they should love the 15th hole at North Berwick.  It is not my favorite on the course but as a rater, it is helpful to know the history of any course you are playing.  How much you let what you have learned influence your opinion is another matter as rating courses is completely subjective.  If it were objective, there would be no need for raters and the perfect Top 100 list would never be argued. 


So to answer your question, no I don't think it is the best hole at North Berwick and I am not sure which one is.  I just love the whole composition.  It is a do not miss play if you are anywhere in the area.

 Nice post Mark. It’s not unfair but not truly fair. But that’s golf. Dogleg lefts  dogleg rights. But it may be the most copied hole in all of golf. And it may not be in the top 7 of best holes at its home.

I was under the impression that we were talking about favourites. You seem to have shifted the conversation to best?

Ciao

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
Maybe that was my fault for using the word best.  I have no idea what is the best hole at NB.  All I know is that 15 is not my favorite in the 18 but I still love the hole.  I did birdie it the last time I played it.  Maybe it should be my favorite 

[Tommy Williamsen]

There aren't many holes that play so differently depending on turf, wind, pin location, or flight of the ball. Rating a redan on one play isn't fair because of those variables.


The one I know best is four at hidden Creek. I have played it dozens of times. It is true redan of 200+yards. On days when the pin is back and the green is firm it plays like a redan we think of. Hit the shot 1/4 of the way onto the surface and watch it bound to the4 back hole location. When the pin is back and the green soft hit it farther onto the green or the ball will get stuck on the front. Hit it too high and it might never roll to a back pin location. On a front pin most won't even notice that it is a redan.

[Sean_A]

Sean,
Maybe that was my fault for using the word best.  I have no idea what is the best hole at NB.  All I know is that 15 is not my favorite in the 18 but I still love the hole.  I did birdie it the last time I played it.  Maybe it should be my favorite 

I think the best holes are 2, 10, 11& 15.

Ciao

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