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Tim Gallant

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Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2021, 07:54:05 AM »
I'd like to see what Ross would do with THAT tree on 4 at Mid Pines :)


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63202.0.html




Ian Andrew

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2021, 09:16:05 AM »
P.S.  If everybody's so much smarter in their old age, then why aren't all of them building their greatest-ever designs?  Could it be that for many, the passion fades?
They usually suffer from taking on too much work and spreading themselves too thin.

Choices repeat
Become too ambitious
No longer show any restraint
Key people spread too thin
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 09:50:37 AM by Ian Andrew »
With every golf development bubble, the end was unexpected and brutal....

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2021, 09:40:32 AM »
Peter, et al., I want us to be BRAVE and guess about golf holes.


For example, there is a lot of beef on this DG about the 6-7 hole corridor at Pasatiempo. Might MacKenzie, given his love for the Old Course, have made the 6th and 7th a double fairway, and perhaps incorporated a bit of the 8th as well? The trees are spectacular ones, but they do narrow the two fairways.


Ronald


That's is the sort of thing that MacKenzie did do, creating double fairways with holes playing in opposite directions. I tend to think MacKenzie was one of the few who paid a bit more than just lip service to TOC when claiming how it inspired him. In my one play at Pasatiempo it struck me that the line of trees (very un-MacKenzie like) was a later addition and that the 6th and 7th were originally laid out as a double fairway. Could be wrong but I suspect that was the case.


Niall

Joe Andriole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2021, 10:47:44 AM »
The trees planted in a straight line forming the unfortunate corridor on the 7th at Pasatiempo are there because of a golf fatality that took place many years ago on the 8th hole.

Ira Fishman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2021, 12:01:33 PM »
I'd like to see what Ross would do with THAT tree on 4 at Mid Pines :)


https://www.golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,63202.0.html


He would not touch it! Still one of the best threads ever.

Niall C

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2021, 11:11:43 AM »
Joe


That doesn't surprise me. MacKenzie was great at using his routings to take best advantage out of ground features but often at the expense of safety, or at least in a way that wouldn't be acceptable today.


Niall

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2021, 10:32:33 AM »
The very under the radar and under rated Barton Hills has a serious head scratcher. There is an ugly blind pond on the 6th. I gotta believe Ross would look for a more graceful solution to the reason he put the pond there.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Gib_Papazian

Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2021, 03:45:42 PM »
Obvious fixes:


#1. Every CB/Raynor/Banks Biarritz Hole that does not have the front section formalized into putting surface gets converted - and presented hard, dry and fast.


#2. Have Flynn come back and figure out what to do with Shinnecock #10 . . . . which is just an awful hole.


#3. Restore #12 tee at NGLA (bringing the echelon bunkers back into play) - and recontour (or re-create, I am still not sure) the "horseshoe" putting surface to match Raynor's plasticine model on the wall at the Super shack.


#4.  Sam Whiting would come back and cut down all the trees on the left of Olympic Lake #4 green and that idiotic birdshit tree that hangs over #18 like a retarded vulture.


#5. Nicklaus goes back to Grand Cypress South, takes those chocolate drop mounds and bulldozes the entire mess into submission.


#6. Rees Jones is brought back to Atlantic GC, tar & feathered for the routing plan - and his portrait in the locker room gets replaced by Mike DeVries.


#7. We exhume Des Muirhead and restore Stone Harbor in Jersey. There is only one - so it needs to still exist.


#8.  Bring back Harry Colt and erase that piss pond on #17 at RCD.


#9. Could not agree more about that forest of snags between #6 & #7 at Pasatiempo. Just terrible . . . . . .


#10. Blow up #12 at Pebble and have Egan build something that does not suck.


#11. Reverse the nines at Spyglass - and jazz up the new #18 (old #9) with a green that does not exclude 95% of the golfers.


#12. Put back coarser grass varieties at Spanish Bay - greens and fairways.


#13. Bring back Doak to restore the Short at Creek Club with a Raynor putting surface.


That is all the gripes I have at the moment . . . . . . 






 

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2021, 06:05:32 PM »
Sean and Gib would be two constellations in the night sky of GCA.


Thanks, fellows...you get what I'm after.


Who's next?
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2021, 08:13:00 PM »
Obvious fixes:


#1. Every CB/Raynor/Banks Biarritz Hole that does not have the front section formalized into putting surface gets converted - and presented hard, dry and fast.


#2. Have Flynn come back and figure out what to do with Shinnecock #10 . . . . which is just an awful hole.


#3. Restore #12 tee at NGLA (bringing the echelon bunkers back into play) - and recontour (or re-create, I am still not sure) the "horseshoe" putting surface to match Raynor's plasticine model on the wall at the Super shack.


#4.  Sam Whiting would come back and cut down all the trees on the left of Olympic Lake #4 green and that idiotic birdshit tree that hangs over #18 like a retarded vulture.


#5. Nicklaus goes back to Grand Cypress South, takes those chocolate drop mounds and bulldozes the entire mess into submission.


#6. Rees Jones is brought back to Atlantic GC, tar & feathered for the routing plan - and his portrait in the locker room gets replaced by Mike DeVries.


#7. We exhume Des Muirhead and restore Stone Harbor in Jersey. There is only one - so it needs to still exist.


#8.  Bring back Harry Colt and erase that piss pond on #17 at RCD.


#9. Could not agree more about that forest of snags between #6 & #7 at Pasatiempo. Just terrible . . . . . .


#10. Blow up #12 at Pebble and have Egan build something that does not suck.


#11. Reverse the nines at Spyglass - and jazz up the new #18 (old #9) with a green that does not exclude 95% of the golfers.


#12. Put back coarser grass varieties at Spanish Bay - greens and fairways.


#13. Bring back Doak to restore the Short at Creek Club with a Raynor putting surface.


That is all the gripes I have at the moment . . . . . . 

I am fairly certain Colt wasn't brought back, but someone told me the pond on 17 is no longer.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Ally Mcintosh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #35 on: December 31, 2021, 03:48:14 AM »
Pond at 17 RCD has indeed gone. Martin Ebert.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #36 on: December 31, 2021, 05:12:57 PM »
P.S.  If everybody's so much smarter in their old age, then why aren't all of them building their greatest-ever designs?  Could it be that for many, the passion fades?
They usually suffer from taking on too much work and spreading themselves too thin.

Choices repeat
Become too ambitious
No longer show any restraint
Key people spread too thin


Agreed.  It is also hard to learn from your mistakes, if you never have time to get back to see what you built and realize you made a mistake!


Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2021, 05:20:26 PM »

I think like most creative enterprises someone's best work is done more towards the beginning to the middle of their career when the creative juices are bursting. There are only so many original songs a musician can wrote, only so many original films a director can direct, and only so many great courses an architect can design.I would say the slight advantage a golf architect has is he isn't given a blank canvas (i.e a flat piece of featureless land). If the land is great the chances of building something great is way higher.Pete Dye wasn't very good the last 20 or so years because he had nothing to work with. In the 80s he was great at making very good courses with nothing. After a while, you run out of ideas. A great site is like having a writing partner, like how Lennon had McCartney.


Matt:


That's the money quote, right there.  Designers are not as limited by their imaginations if they can keep finding interesting sites to work with, and new problems to solve.  It doesn't happen very often, because most take the easy way commercially, which is to repeat the style that other people associate with your success.  Instead, the focus should be on the PROCESS that made those projects different than everyone else's.


JohnVDB

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #38 on: December 31, 2021, 09:22:33 PM »
Pond at 17 RCD has indeed gone. Martin Ebert.


It is gone, but it was replaced with a flat sandy area that looks more like it belongs in Florida than Ireland.

Jeff Schley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2022, 08:02:51 AM »
Pond at 17 RCD has indeed gone. Martin Ebert.


It is gone, but it was replaced with a flat sandy area that looks more like it belongs in Florida than Ireland.
Hooray! So now it looks like Medalist instead of Torrey Pines? ;D
"To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice your gifts."
- Steve Prefontaine

Sven Nilsen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2022, 11:41:44 AM »
Switch the templates on 8 and 12 at Old Mac.  12 works better for a Biarritz, there just isn't enough length at 8 to have one here.
"As much as we have learned about the history of golf architecture in the last ten plus years, I'm convinced we have only scratched the surface."  A GCA Poster

"There's the golf hole; play it any way you please." Donald Ross

Gib_Papazian

Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2022, 12:36:18 PM »
TD,


Let's say - arguendo - Steve Wynn decided to build a companion course right next to Shadow Creek. Same dead-flat, lonely desert landscape, no natural features but cactus - and no sensitive environmental constraints beyond exhuming Bugsy Siegel's human soil amendments.


What stage of your career you want to tackle this blank slate? Speaking for myself, there is/was a sweet spot between finally accumulating enough experience - and that inevitable point where mental energy in the tank shows less than half full.


In other words, my creativity as a still photographer or writer remains at full power, but the requirements are short spurts of extreme concentration. After 6-8 hours moving lights and switching out glass on a motion set, I wear down physically and mentally - lacking the energy to solve problems nearly as effectively as, say, 10 years ago.


Writing a few columns and tackling a complicated book . . . . two different things.


Certainly I fall back on stylistic habits - instead of constantly trying to push the envelope out of whole cloth - but the accumulation of scar tissue and 40 years of road rash has to eventually truncate even a genius like you (not to swell your head like the rest of the Treehouse bromancers).


As Mike Wilbon loves to opine: "Father time is undefeated."


Maybe going back and drastically improving/fixing your past mistakes can be done at any age - using experience as a guidepost - but standing at the base of that mountain, confident you've got the gumption and and energy to conjure up something out of featureless whole cloth that stands up, well, to the standards you created . . . . . it always comes down to road weariness.


BTW, Nice to know the piss pond at RCD is gone, but hard to believe it was replaced by a Floridian splash bunker. Next time you're near the Mountains of Mourne, maybe make a suggestion to Group Captain Patrick O'Hearn (I just made that name up) . . . . . .   


 


 


   


     
« Last Edit: January 01, 2022, 12:42:16 PM by Gib Papazian »

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered?
« Reply #42 on: January 01, 2022, 01:14:36 PM »
Would you rather have installed quicksand? I can't imagine it is easy to replace a pond with terra firma.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Which of their own holes would the greats have altered? New
« Reply #43 on: January 01, 2022, 01:27:12 PM »
Would you rather have installed quicksand? I can't imagine it is easy to replace a pond with terra firma.

Yes, I assumed the sand is a stage of the plan?

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 04:14:39 AM by Sean_A »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

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