[Kalen Braley]

I think too many people have fun synonymous with easy. There are tough courses that are fun and tough courses that are miserable. I think Bethpage is a rotten course while I think Merion is fantastic.  A chimpanzee could be taught to design tough holes. That doesn’t mean they’re any good.

Agreed,

I thought Pasatiempo and Chambers Bay were certainly tough courses, and I absolutely loved and had fun on both.

P.S. Perhaps I just missed it on PacDunes, I didn't think it was difficult, (other than the pit of despair on 16)..but I only played it once, albeit in a stiff summer wind. 

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,

I'll come to your defense on this one.  I completely understand your point here, and I agree with all of it except one minor point which I'll get to later.

The point of this definition of fun, or fun as it was meant to be, should be based in how Michael expressed it on another thread... a numbers game.

Yes, there are a small % of golfers who find "fun" where cost is no issue, and they choose to play only the best of the best whether it be high end resorts or privates.   Or those who are very good players who enjoy the regular challenge of posting a great score on a difficult ball busting course.

And there is the rest of us, where the real numbers lie in golf, in its masses. Playing local tracks, on limited budgets, predominantly weekend play, or summer evening beer leagues, with the occasional buddy trip mixed in.  This is where fun counts the most, for the most amount of people.

P.S.  My only quibble was the original GrudgeMatch at Wine Valey.  Garland was 1 up thru 17, and we halved 18 which resulted in his narrow win, certainly not a spanking!

 We’ll said Kalen. Any minute level of victory in a grudge match is a butt kicking. 0.01 seconds in a sprint. One pin in bowling. A nose in horse racing. It’s a Grudge Match and therefore the victor has dominated the non victor. And gets to brag about that victory until death do us apart. Garland will take that victory to his grave. I’m thinking his headstone will include “I won at golf once” or something like that.

[Garland Bayley]

Sagebrush
Fun.
Enjoyable.
Demanding

Also high on Kalen's fun scale.

[Garland Bayley]

... Garland will take that victory to his grave. I’m thinking his headstone will include “I won at golf once” or something like that.

I'm sure your grave headstone won't recount begging for significant leniency on strokes, and still being beat by me.

My headstone will read "Beat Anthony Gray one day, and Kalen Braley the next, plus went 2-0 against Bill McBride."

[Anthony Gray]

To pick up where Niall left off, what if I have more fun at Carnoustie than I do at Cruden Bay? What if I said I’d love to play Carnoustie every day whereas I’m not sure I could find the same enjoyment in playing Cruden Bay every day?


Anthony - I have hijacked your thread. I’m sorry. It’s not that I don’t know where you’re coming from. I’m just trying to stop lazy pigeon holing of courses in to either “fun” or “challenging” buckets with the former seeing favour in the last 15 years and the latter being talked down in oh so subtle ways.


I’ll take my morning golf at Carnoustie and my evening golf at Cruit Island. That’s a real difference.

 Good points. And I value your opinions. Carnoustie is a perfect example. The average golfer gets beat up at the end. I love the finish. Great holes. But a Fun 10 would have you walking off smiling after a good score at the finish. For a Fun 10 TOC has the perfect 18 th hole. If your par thatlast hole the steak tastes better. If 16 17 and 18 were at 7 8 and 9 the Average player getting a kibi appetizer.


 I think the average golfer, 16 index is going to chose a course with a cup-le drivable par 4s like Cruden Bay. He knows he really has a chance. Carnoustie doesn’t give him that.


 Some of the Top 100 courses a golfer playing off at a 16 is just trying to survive. I’ve played Kiawah island and have been back a few times and have decided not to golf. Even although it’s paid for. It’s a great course and deserves its ranking but it’s a Fun 6.5.

[Anthony Gray]

... Garland will take that victory to his grave. I’m thinking his headstone will include “I won at golf once” or something like that.

I'm sure your grave headstone won't recount begging for significant leniency on strokes, and still being beat by me.

My headstone will read "Beat Anthony Gray one day, and Kalen Braley the next, plus went 2-0 against Bill McBride."

 Any chances to nominate this as post of the year.

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
I am presuming all your points make up your definition of fun which is perfectly fine.  Many are not architecture related but that is fine too.  What you are pointing out is why almost any kind of list is so varied and so subjective.  Fun is not universally defined.  For me personally, I think more sets of teeing choices has the biggest impact on fun and can bring more people back into the game.  Most courses are far too long and take too long for many golfers to play (male and female).


I’m in PA and it is cold here now.  Our course is still open but there are no tee markers out.  When we play now we take turns teeing it up literally anywhere at any yardage.  We call that fun

 Excellent Mark. Different sets of tees help. I lived on a golf course and they never changed the tee boxes. It was the exact same course every day. So I would go out on Sunday morning with the guy that changed the pins and empty the garbage. He would smoke pot and drink beer Saturday night so I would do the work for him. He just drove the cart. I started moving the tees. Some back some forward. A drivable par 4 at times. 80% of the guys loved it. The lower golf IQ guys did not. After a few months the word got out that I was the one doing it. So it had to be terminated. So we went back to the same course everyday. The one thing the guy taught me was before you lift up the trash can make sure there is not a bed under the rim. Bees love those metal trash cans on a course.

[Jerry Rossi]

I think the term “fun” to describe golf courses has now jumped the shark.


There are many, many different ways to enjoy playing golf on golf courses. The more we try and define it in this happy-clappy way where the only fun golf courses have wild greens, half-par holes, quirk galore, short par-3’s and features that make us laugh out loud, the closer we get to promoting contrived and Disneyland architecture.


(Anthony - apologies for picking your thread for the above diatribe!).


For me, golf is made more fun when I have to hit loads of different shot types because of firm conditions and wind. I also happen to enjoy the challenge of a medal round on a tough course. I consider that fun too. For others, it may be different.

I couldn't agree more.  What I consider a fun course might not be what someone else considers fun.  Doesn't even mean I'd want to play it every day but I loved the challenge of playing Oakmont, being asked to hit different shots, execute over and over on a course that I felt is extremely well designed....and you guessed it...."fun".  I shot my second worst round of the year there but I sure had "fun" doing it and would go back in a second. 

[Mike Nuzzo]

Fun for me, architecturally (or artistically) speaking, is something different, unusual, or interesting.
Variety and originality are the most fun for me, same goes for beer, food, music, art, and even jiu jitsu.

The setting, shaping or varied slopes, hole lengths, sizes of features.


Fun for me, playability speaking, is a variety of and having options for shots, tactics, and strategies.

[Anthony Gray]

Fun for me, architecturally (or artistically) speaking, is something different, unusual, or interesting.
Variety and originality are the most fun for me, same goes for beer, food, music, art, and even jiu jitsu.

The setting, shaping or varied slopes, hole lengths, sizes of features.


Fun for me, playability speaking, is a variety of and having options for shots, tactics, and strategies.

 Well said. And the three mentioned as 10s have all that. CB,NB and PAC Dunes.

[Anthony Gray]

 The Tree Farm will have drivable 18th finish. Bam!!!!!!

[Mark_Fine]

Anthony,
You do know that roughly 85% of golfers hit the ball with a driver on average 235 yards or less.  So who is #18 at Tree Farm “drivable” for? Make sure it is “in range”

[Peter Pallotta]

Off Ally's point: yes, it does seem like the language has changed over the years: the artificial/too simplistic 'strategic-penal' divide has become today the 'fun-challenging' dichotomy,

Can language/thinking that's too binary lead to less interesting designs? Can an architect strive too much to create even a positive experience like fun?

Fun for me is solving -- attempting to solve -- the problems the architect has set for me, ideally ones (to Mike N's point) that are varied, original, aesthetically understated and not too obvious.

(Jim H says it better in his first line, below)

[Jim Hoak]

In my opinion a great course is only "fun," if it does not overtly appear to be built to be "fun."  Overly manufactured courses often contain some of the features you list in your opening post, but putting in most of those features strikes me as being too cute, trying too hard.  Letting it flow naturally is more important than trying too hard to be "fun."  Go to a miniature golf course--or TopGolf--if fun is the primary objective.  Obviously, golf is a game--and we play games to have fun--but don't hit me alongside my head with how much fun I need to be having.  I love a classic, beautiful course--not one that tries too hard ostentationally to be "fun."?

[Anthony Gray]

Anthony,
You do know that roughly 85% of golfers hit the ball with a driver on average 235 yards or less.  So who is #18 at Tree Farm “drivable” for? Make sure it is “in range”

 I’m going to make some assumptions. When Zac Blair told Tom Doak he wanted a drivable par 4 finish it’s going to happen. I assume that proper tee box use will allow those 85% guys a chance.
 TOC gives those guys a chance on some days. North Berwick the same. They also can punish the golfer if they miss o. The wrong side or are to bold with OB. Great design. Looks like Zac gets it. Fun finish.


Anthony

[Anthony Gray]

In my opinion a great course is only "fun," if it does not overtly appear to be built to be "fun."  Overly manufactured courses often contain some of the features you list in your opening post, but putting in most of those features strikes me as being too cute, trying too hard.  Letting it flow naturally is more important than trying too hard to be "fun."  Go to a miniature golf course--or TopGolf--if fun is the primary objective.  Obviously, golf is a game--and we play games to have fun--but don't hit me alongside my head with how much fun I need to be having.  I love a classic, beautiful course--not one that tries too hard ostentationally to be "fun."?

 Jim,



The miniature golf reference is very immature and trolling. I mentioned three courses that I gave Fun 10s. None was Gooney Golf. Don’t think Old Tom Morris or Simpson overly manufactured anything at Cruden Bay. Or the good folks in East Lothian including St. Andrews own David Strath did at North Berwick.  I also gave Pacific Dunes a Fun 10. How is it too cute and trying too hard to be fun?


 Anthony

[Sean_A]

 We all understand the Doak Scale. But what if there was a fun scale?


 The average golfer has a handicap of 16. So getting beat up on a Doak 9 or 10 might not be fun. Personally I have past up on Muirfield because I thought it would not be fun for me. I want to feel great after a round not exhausted.


 So what would a course have to have to get a 10 on the fun scale? Let’s look at this from a 10+ handicapper average golfer.


 What are some courses that qualify?


What should a Fun 10 have?


 -One drivable par 4


-A short par 3 around 100 yards


- Easy hole 18 to finish happy


 - Generous first hole to get warmed up


 - eye candy


 -three half pars that favor the course and four that favor the golfer on par 4s


 - one forced carry


- a waterfall and a volcano or castle in the distance


-highly contoured greens


-open to the public


- can walk it


- can change your shoes in the parking lot


-few bunkers


- hot dogs with a steamer for buns


- a course dog


- very long par 5 and short par 5


- quirk and more quirk


- a few bold features even if they are eye candy and don’t come into play


- lots of risk/reward


- one hole that is unfair and requires luck which evens the playing field with high and low handicappers


- zero false fronts
 
- one big tree to aim at


- any must have architectural features


- any absolutely not architectural features




 What makes a course FUN for the average gentleman golfer?


 I have short list for 10s
  Cruden Bay
  North Berwick
  Pacific Dunes


  9s
 Knob North
 White Day
 Diamanté (the first year it opened)
 Crail
 Prestwick

Why zero false fronts? For uphill holes aren't false fronts amenable to the ground game?


Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

 We all understand the Doak Scale. But what if there was a fun scale?


 The average golfer has a handicap of 16. So getting beat up on a Doak 9 or 10 might not be fun. Personally I have past up on Muirfield because I thought it would not be fun for me. I want to feel great after a round not exhausted.


 So what would a course have to have to get a 10 on the fun scale? Let’s look at this from a 10+ handicapper average golfer.


 What are some courses that qualify?


What should a Fun 10 have?


 -One drivable par 4


-A short par 3 around 100 yards


- Easy hole 18 to finish happy


 - Generous first hole to get warmed up


 - eye candy


 -three half pars that favor the course and four that favor the golfer on par 4s


 - one forced carry


- a waterfall and a volcano or castle in the distance


-highly contoured greens


-open to the public


- can walk it


- can change your shoes in the parking lot


-few bunkers


- hot dogs with a steamer for buns


- a course dog


- very long par 5 and short par 5


- quirk and more quirk


- a few bold features even if they are eye candy and don’t come into play


- lots of risk/reward


- one hole that is unfair and requires luck which evens the playing field with high and low handicappers


- zero false fronts
 
- one big tree to aim at


- any must have architectural features


- any absolutely not architectural features




 What makes a course FUN for the average gentleman golfer?


 I have short list for 10s
  Cruden Bay
  North Berwick
  Pacific Dunes


  9s
 Knob North
 White Day
 Diamanté (the first year it opened)
 Crail
 Prestwick

Why zero false fronts? For uphill holes aren't false fronts amenable to the ground game?


Ciao

 False fronts are usually sloped so they prevent the ground game. I’m all for the ground game. Seems that false fronts prevent it. The ball usually dies and doesn’t chase on them.


 Anthony

[Thomas Dai]

CB a fun 10 in the winter when the grounds frozen, there are snow squalls in the air and there’s a strong wind from the east?
Brrrrrrrrr….. )
Atb

[Mark Pearce]

I suspect that Carnoustie wouldn't be near the top of anyone's fun list however I love that course and have had loads of fun getting beaten up on it. Fun is in the eye of the beholder.


Niall

One of the most fun days golf I ever had was shooting 108 in torrential rain at Carnoustie.  Absolutely loved it.  We (my wife and I) finished the round and went straight into the pro shop to see if there was a slot in the afternoon to go out again.


And I cannot remember playing and Muirfield and not having fun, even when I've played badly.

[Sean_A]

 We all understand the Doak Scale. But what if there was a fun scale?

 The average golfer has a handicap of 16. So getting beat up on a Doak 9 or 10 might not be fun. Personally I have past up on Muirfield because I thought it would not be fun for me. I want to feel great after a round not exhausted.

 So what would a course have to have to get a 10 on the fun scale? Let’s look at this from a 10+ handicapper average golfer.

 What are some courses that qualify?

What should a Fun 10 have?

 -One drivable par 4

-A short par 3 around 100 yards

- Easy hole 18 to finish happy

 - Generous first hole to get warmed up

 - eye candy

 -three half pars that favor the course and four that favor the golfer on par 4s

 - one forced carry

- a waterfall and a volcano or castle in the distance

-highly contoured greens

-open to the public

- can walk it

- can change your shoes in the parking lot

-few bunkers

- hot dogs with a steamer for buns

- a course dog

- very long par 5 and short par 5

- quirk and more quirk

- a few bold features even if they are eye candy and don’t come into play

- lots of risk/reward

- one hole that is unfair and requires luck which evens the playing field with high and low handicappers

- zero false fronts
 
- one big tree to aim at

- any must have architectural features

- any absolutely not architectural features

 What makes a course FUN for the average gentleman golfer?

 I have short list for 10s
  Cruden Bay
  North Berwick
  Pacific Dunes

  9s
 Knob North
 White Day
 Diamanté (the first year it opened)
 Crail
 Prestwick

Why zero false fronts? For uphill holes aren't false fronts amenable to the ground game?

Ciao

 False fronts are usually sloped so they prevent the ground game. I’m all for the ground game. Seems that false fronts prevent it. The ball usually dies and doesn’t chase on them.

 Anthony

Huh? A false front provides for a slope to the back to front green. When the front of the green is artificially raised is when the disconnect between the approach and green happens. A true false front has the risk of putting off the green and ball rolls quite a distance frown the hill. It's the more abrupt, plateau greens which are more inclined toward aerial shots.

Ciao

[Anthony Gray]

 We all understand the Doak Scale. But what if there was a fun scale?

 The average golfer has a handicap of 16. So getting beat up on a Doak 9 or 10 might not be fun. Personally I have past up on Muirfield because I thought it would not be fun for me. I want to feel great after a round not exhausted.

 So what would a course have to have to get a 10 on the fun scale? Let’s look at this from a 10+ handicapper average golfer.

 What are some courses that qualify?

What should a Fun 10 have?

 -One drivable par 4

-A short par 3 around 100 yards

- Easy hole 18 to finish happy

 - Generous first hole to get warmed up

 - eye candy

 -three half pars that favor the course and four that favor the golfer on par 4s

 - one forced carry

- a waterfall and a volcano or castle in the distance

-highly contoured greens

-open to the public

- can walk it

- can change your shoes in the parking lot

-few bunkers

- hot dogs with a steamer for buns

- a course dog

- very long par 5 and short par 5

- quirk and more quirk

- a few bold features even if they are eye candy and don’t come into play

- lots of risk/reward

- one hole that is unfair and requires luck which evens the playing field with high and low handicappers

- zero false fronts
 
- one big tree to aim at

- any must have architectural features

- any absolutely not architectural features

 What makes a course FUN for the average gentleman golfer?

 I have short list for 10s
  Cruden Bay
  North Berwick
  Pacific Dunes

  9s
 Knob North
 White Day
 Diamanté (the first year it opened)
 Crail
 Prestwick

Why zero false fronts? For uphill holes aren't false fronts amenable to the ground game?

Ciao

 False fronts are usually sloped so they prevent the ground game. I’m all for the ground game. Seems that false fronts prevent it. The ball usually dies and doesn’t chase on them.

 Anthony

Huh? A false front provides for a slope to the back to front green. When the front of the green is artificially raised is when the disconnect between the approach and green happens. A true false front has the risk of putting off the green and ball rolls quite a distance frown the hill. It's the more abrupt, plateau greens which are more inclined toward aerial shots.

Ciao

 I’m all for chasing a ball onto the green. Higher handicappers don’t like a forced Cary over bunkers to make the green. And there aren’t much joys putting off a green. The false fronts I’m thinking about are the ones that repell  the ball and stop it from bouncing forward. Those suck for the 16 handicapper. As far as putting off the green there isn’t an abundance of joy with that either. I’ve seen a scratch golfer just pick up on a windy day on the Eden. No fun for him either and he’s a club champion. It also sucks when your chip ends up back at your feet or even behind you.


 I think they have a lot of potential to take the fun away from the round for the guys that are escaping life for a few hours. Three or for chips ending up at your feet then picking up is kinda like a bad day at work for these guys.

[Anthony Gray]

I suspect that Carnoustie wouldn't be near the top of anyone's fun list however I love that course and have had loads of fun getting beaten up on it. Fun is in the eye of the beholder.


Niall

One of the most fun days golf I ever had was shooting 108 in torrential rain at Carnoustie.  Absolutely loved it.  We (my wife and I) finished the round and went straight into the pro shop to see if there was a slot in the afternoon to go out again.


And I cannot remember playing and Muirfield and not having fun, even when I've played badly.

 Might have an outlier here. A 108 in torrential rain. If I dragged my wife around in that she would leave me and find that Italian guy she’s always wanted. 

[Anthony Gray]

CB a fun 10 in the winter when the grounds frozen, there are snow squalls in the air and there’s a strong wind from the east?
Brrrrrrrrr….. )
Atb

 I might need to clarify my post. A fun 10 would be under pleasant conditions. I’m thinking golf isn’t overly fun “in the winter when grounds frozen ,there are squalls in the air and there’s a strong wind from the east”. Or even from the west.  I assumed it was understood under normal playing conditions. My thread is about golf course architecture and not weather. I hope it snows for Christmas. Always seems to be a better holiday with snow.


 Merry Christmas Thomas

[Jeff Schley]

Some things I think in general are hallmarks of the fun scale to me.

• Width
• Open green fronts
• Width
• Some unique “quirk”
• No OB
• No gorse close to landing area
• Several large greens as I think long lag putts are fun
• reasonable price as I, like many, can’t enjoy an expensive round if I’m playing crappy like a cheap round.
• 1-2 drivable par 4’s
• A under 100 yard par 3
• a par 5 you have a shot at getting home in 2

Nice weather is a plus to enjoy as well. Although playing TOC in 30-50 mph gusts in June 2019 was a blast.  I enjoyed that, but not everyday.

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