[JMEvensky]

I think PAR matters to everyone:


-- as a baseline for the pro


-- as an expectation for the stick


-- as a hope for the duffer


-- as a measuring stick for all

You just put into words what I was thinking--and much more coherently.

[MCirba]

It dosen't matter conceptually.


However, the course formerly known as Torresdale Frankford CC has a 475 yard par four 8th hole with a creek crossing in front of the green.


If it was called a par five at least 60 or 70% of those futilely trying to reach the green in two would lay up.


So reality trumps concept.

[Peter Pallotta]

For a supposedly meaningless / unnecessary / diaphanous concept, great architects past and present sure have made wonderfully concrete and thrilling use of it over the years, haven't they?

[Anthony Gray]

 Par dictates how you play some holes.


 The Road Hole as a 5 you may lay up, as a 4 you will challenge the bunker and the road.

How would you play it if they changed it to a par 3?

 Like a par 4

[Anthony Gray]

... I played with a nut once and he kept score in his head as it related to bogey. If you ask him how he played he would say I was 2 under bogey or 3 over Bogey. He loved the game.

I resent being called a nut!

And, you sure seem fixated on par for a guy who is too bored to putt out most holes.

Perhaps driving range golf is perfect for you. Is there a TopGolf near you?

 Haha. I was referring to Bill McBride.

[Anthony Gray]

The only par that should really have significance is the total.  I look at it like a 1 foot ruler that begins at zero and ends at 12.  You have markings to determine various measurements in between and they only matter when they are the stopping point.  And that is for stroke play.  For match play...they don't.

 I hate rulers

[Colin Sheehan]

One thing to remember is when the rubber-core wound Haskell ball came along, it made the "bogey" holes easier than they had been. So eventually, they decided to come up with a new version of bogey in the form of the par system, which was just a way to round down the half par holes to the lower number. I would love to have someone share any essays, if they exist, where there was any language from the old dead guys suggesting they lengthen or alter a hole so it remains the same "bogey" challenge.


What should have happened in the past 25 years (of course this never would have happened) is reset to a new version of par, the way par was a resetting of bogey.


And this way, the holes that have remained threes or fours or fives could remain so, and once again, the short five and short fours, could have been downgraded from 5 to 4 and 4 to 3 without actually changing holes. [National Golf Links "lengthened" Hogsback by just changing it to a par-4.] Too bad the rest of those "compromised" golf holes never could get around to just saying such and such hole is no longer a par-5s. For many courses, what was once a par 72 is now a par 68.


I guess it is our need to have par remain in the low 70s despite the advance golf technology, and that conflict caused some degradation of classical architecture. 

[Mike_Trenham]

Tell me what part of par is not critical for:


Net match play competitions
Best one or two of four net in a foursome game


Par speeds up play because it allows you to pick up when having a horrible hole.

[Mike_Young]

The only par that should really have significance is the total.  I look at it like a 1 foot ruler that begins at zero and ends at 12.  You have markings to determine various measurements in between and they only matter when they are the stopping point.  And that is for stroke play.  For match play...they don't.

 I hate rulers

I figured...

[Garland Bayley]

Tell me what part of par is not critical for:


Net match play competitions

What is that? Certainly a handicapped match play match has no need for par.


Best one or two of four net in a foursome game

Since a foursome game only has two balls, what is this four net?.

Par speeds up play because it allows you to pick up when having a horrible hole.

Isn't that just a concession? That was available before par was invented.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Tell me what part of par is not critical for:


Net match play competitions
Best one or two of four net in a foursome game



Par speeds up play because it allows you to pick up when having a horrible hole.

?


Par is completely irrelevant in all matchplay situations, whether handicapped or not.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Par is the measurement indicator. Important to evaluate performance.

[JESII]

Why do architects feel individual hole par matters? Specifically, we've had conversations on here about creativity being diminished because 'in-between' yardages are not favorable.


Why would that be?

[Mark_Fine]

Jim,
How many architects are designing “championship” courses that are 6200 yards long?  Could it have something to do with “perceived” par even if they don’t want to call it par 

[Thomas Dai]

Need care not to confuse par with SI when discussing amateur/handicap matchplay and stableford.
atb

[JESII]

Not sure I understand your point.


The complaint on here is that owners won't let architects build 100, 300 or 500 approximate yard holes from the back tees. Nobody is suggesting 18 of them for a course is a good idea.


My question is, why can't an architect make the case to their client that a 300 yard hole is extremely valuable and 2 or 3 of that 'in-between' type in the course of a round will add tremendous interest?

[Ken Moum]

How would you keep track of who is leading during a medal play tournament without par?  Tiger has taken 32 shots and Brooks has taken 14 and Bubba 51.  Who is leading?

Level fours is no worse an indicator than par given the vast difference in difficulty relative to par of various holes.


We all know that at ANGC. for instance, pars on 11 and 12 are almost as valuable as birdies at 13 and 15.  So a player who's finished sixteen holes at 4 under likely not actually ahead of one who's at 3 under on the 13th tee.

[JESII]

Another question; what would be the value of removing PAR from our lexicon at this stage?

[Jim_Coleman]

   Two other par anecdotes.  The 18th hole at Rolling Green was a 480 yard par 5 for 75 years and the 12th rated stroke hole. A new tee added 30 yards to the hole for the “white tee,” but the “blue tee” remained at 480 and was declared a par 4.  Some  argued that, as a par 4, the blue tee should be the number 2 stroke hole. Why the same hole should be deemed harder for handicap purposes just because the par changed made no sense to me. If I hadn’t received a stroke there for decades, why should I get one now? Same hole.
   Anecdote #2, same hole. One day the super placed the white tee back at the old 480 yard area. My opponent asked, “Are they playing it as a par 4 or 5?”. 

[Mark_Fine]

A few thoughts - I love when golfers talk about the “drivable par four” especially when the hole is 280 yards long and they can only hit it 230    I have a friend who is an analytics professor at Lehigh University.  He laughs when I tell him about our discussions about “par”.  It is really just an expected result from a certain set of data that one gets judged by.  I think it was at Memorial Golf Course where there were holes over 520 or 530 yards that were called “par fours”.  Does anyone think the pros played them differently because of that?  If you want it to be a birdie and eagle fest call them par fives, if you don’t call them something else.  For many golfers, making a par or a birdie or even a bogie is the highlight of their golfing round. 


Jim,
I am not sure architects are “restricted from building holes at those yardages” especially if they think it will be a great hole from those distances.  Sometimes it is pace of play or safety or a routing issue or … that is more of the influence than what par will be given to the hole but then again convention says we need to be in that 70-72 total range for the course to be of championship quality   

[Sean_A]

Another question; what would be the value of removing PAR from our lexicon at this stage?

I believe that if par expectation were removed or ignored then archies would have more freedom to design holes. We might see the sub 100-115, 230-280 and 440-475 ranges much more used for everyday golf. In other words, total par could be lowered and less land used, less inputs needed etc.


In truth, par is more and more meaningless as the gap between expert golfers and handicap players widens. Par for experts is really at least 3-4 shots lower than indicated. It really does lend itself more toward total par without individual hole par. Often times, the best run of holes as seen as a total good score anyway. Hoping to score X over four holes etc.


Ciao

[JESII]

Another question; what would be the value of removing PAR from our lexicon at this stage?

I believe that if par expectation were removed or ignored then archies would have more freedom to design holes. We might see the sub 100-115, 230-280 and 440-475 ranges much more used for everyday golf. In other words, total par could be lowered and less land used, less inputs needed etc.


Ciao

This is what I feel like I've heard on here. If it's happening in the real world, I put that squarely on the architects for not making a compelling case to their clients why a specific hole is worthy.


Yes, ideally, a client would let the architect go, but in reality it sounds like they are often quite involved in the process.

[Garland Bayley]

Par is the measurement indicator. Important to evaluate performance.

Strokes taken is the measurement indicator. Important to evaluate performance.

[Peter Pallotta]

Near the end of the season I was having what looked to be the best round of golf I've ever played in my life (until I choked):

I started with 12 pars in a row, and then had a bogey and bounce-back birdie to get to even par, level par, standing on the 15th tee.

Let me repeat that: this late arriving and even later blooming hack started with 12 straight pars, and was at level par after 14 holes.

Why would any of you meanies want to take that away from me? What kind of sick twisted minds would instead have me say 'I've taken 56 strokes so far, and I so hope I need take only 16 more in order to finish the last 4 holes'?

Sean always makes good points, as per above. But he's played golf his whole life and was once a 2 -- so he long ago stopped 'measuring himself' against such an outside and arbitrary concept as par.

I'm not yet either that good or that sophisticated. Standing on the 15th tee at even par after starting with 12 straight pars was very satisfying indeed!


 

[Sean_A]

Another question; what would be the value of removing PAR from our lexicon at this stage?

I believe that if par expectation were removed or ignored then archies would have more freedom to design holes. We might see the sub 100-115, 230-280 and 440-475 ranges much more used for everyday golf. In other words, total par could be lowered and less land used, less inputs needed etc.

Ciao

This is what I feel like I've heard on here. If it's happening in the real world, I put that squarely on the architects for not making a compelling case to their clients why a specific hole is worthy.

Yes, ideally, a client would let the architect go, but in reality it sounds like they are often quite involved in the process.

If the idea is to make money, playing it safe is often the right answer. That said, I am convinced that golfers would be fine if the concept of par didn't exist. They would find ways understand if a hole was played well or not, just like most sports.

There isn't much point in back and forth.  The par fans will swear that without par golf would be something less than it is with par. Others will say otherwise.  What I can say is that since par has become completely accepted, golf design has become more codified.

Pietro

When I was good I rarely played the card.  All matches were matchplay.  I never did get totally into par even as a kid because it wasn't meaningful in the way that winning a hole is. I still feel this way and rarely play with a card in my hand...only once this year and that was stableford. Of course, I didn't realize then how much the concept of par effects design. I still recall being really surprised when all those years ago I read about green size and bunker depth being related to par.   

Ciao

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